Silvercore Podcast 193 Mark Twight

About this episode

Mark Twight joins Travis Bader on the Silvercore Podcast for a conversation about alpinism, Gym Jones, the training behind 300, and life after peak performance. The booking took five years and one condition: in person only.

Twight climbed in the Alps, Alaska and the Canadian Rockies, including The Reality Bath, a route that went unrepeated for 37 years. He climbed the Slovak Direct on Denali in 60 hours with Steve House and Scott Backes. His books Extreme Alpinism and Kiss or Kill were picked up well outside climbing, including by military units who found the chapter on attitude and character applied to their work. He later worked on nine feature films, most of them with director Zack Snyder, building physical transformations against production deadlines.

In this conversation, recorded in person in Montana, Twight talks about what separated him from better technical climbers, why he keeps walking away from things at the top, and what he has found in the valley since.

Topics covered:

- Growing up the son of a National Park Service law enforcement ranger

- Taking up shooting in 1995, and mentors including Brian Enos and Pat Rogers

- Getting disqualified before firing a shot in his first match in 21 years

- Self image, permission to fail, and why some competitors stall

- Mount Hunter in 39 hours nonstop, and the arithmetic of pack weight

- Writing while drinking, and the decision to stop

- Building the cast of 300, and why fast results do not hold

- Leaving the Aquaman job when the paycheque became the only reason to stay

- Declining physical capacity, and purpose after achievement

A conversation about total commitment, and the bill that comes due for it.

Learn more about Mark Twight:

Chapters

00:00 Five years and a one word reply

06:20 A ranger father, an anti-authority son

12:50 Nine films, mostly with Zack Snyder

17:20 Forty pounds and a changed life

20:00 Extreme Alpinism reaches Special Forces

26:50 The mountains are not clever, men are

28:40 Guns are stupid, then a range day

31:30 Brian Enos, Gunsite and mentors

41:50 Back to competition, DQ'd first match

49:40 You never outperform your self image

51:20 Permission to fail

57:20 Seven lives in one lifetime

1:01:00 Mount Hunter, 39 hours nonstop

1:04:50 The Slovak Direct in 60 hours

1:11:00 Why he stopped climbing

1:16:30 Writing drunk, and what it cost

1:29:00 Coming down to the valley

1:38:40 Borrowed beliefs and in-group politics

1:44:40 Hunters, conservation, common ground

1:47:20 Paragliding before anyone knew how

1:56:40 Something to rebel against

2:00:20 The first gym, and what it taught him

2:06:40 Invitation only, everyone on parole

2:12:30 300 and the website that crashed

2:16:30 Fear, rationalization, walking away

2:23:20 Walking off Aquaman

2:31:50 Fast results are unstable results

2:46:20 Why dangerous things matter

2:51:40 Risk tolerance over technical skill

3:03:40 No off-ramp for veterans and athletes

3:08:00 Intent instead of intensity

3:17:30 Saying goodbye to Daryl Miller

3:23:20 What success means at 65

Resources & partners

Website: https://www.marktwight.com

Substack: https://marktwight.substack.com

Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/wfmft

Travis Bader: [00:00:00] July 2021, I reach out to a man to see if he could come on the podcast. This is a man who changed how I think about effort, fear, and how far a person can push. His writing shaped how modern alpinists climb and how Special Forces train. And when Hollywood needed the cast of 300 turned into Spartans, they came to him.

In 1988, he was 25,000 feet up on the Rupal Face of the Nanga Parbat when the mountain came down on his team. That October, he went up the north side of Everest with no fixed rope, no camps, and no oxygen. Somewhere in between, he put up a route in the Canadian Rockies that nobody repeated for 37 years. His reply to me was one word: [00:01:00] possibly.

Also, one condition: in person only. And the border had been closed for over a year. Five years later, I pointed my truck at Montana and drove until the road ran out at his door. Welcome to the Silvercore Podcast, Mark Twight.

Mark Twight: Travis, thank you. That was- All right. Yeah.

Travis Bader: That's al-

Mark Twight: it's always- We, we hit some high points, some...

When that email chain, um, came live again- ... uh, after y- yeah, five years.

Travis Bader: Five

Mark Twight: years? Um, I was like, "Oh, I'm glad I save everything." Uh, a- and that it wa- th- and that it, that it was, that it was still there, 'cause I could go back and I went, "Oh, man, that was-"

Travis Bader: You're like, "I, I didn't think you'd actually follow up on this."

Mark Twight: Was, was I kind of a dick when I said possibly? And d- and was it intentional when I said... But I have, um, kept a rule of only doing podcasts live because [00:02:00] of everything that we've shared-

Travis Bader: Mm ...

Mark Twight: up to this moment.

Travis Bader: Mm.

Mark Twight: Like, before we started recording, we get to know each other, and, like, I under- I see the mannerisms, like how you, how you move, how you speak.

We get to, you know, share a little bit of our own history that-

Travis Bader: You establish a baseline.

Mark Twight: We establish a baseline, and we don't, um... And it d- yeah, it's more intimate.

Travis Bader: I agree.

Mark Twight: And, and I, uh, I'm, I'm glad I, I said that, and I also insisted... I mean, so I finally did one with Steve House last December. Mm-hmm. Well, we did, I think, three.

Yeah. And, uh, it just happened. I'd, you know, it'd been in the works. You know, we've just been waiting, waiting, waiting, and finally he said, "Okay, I'm gonna be, uh, be visiting my parents, and I can fly to Bozeman." I said, "Uh, in... I mean, then let's do it." Absolutely. Abso- abso- 100%. I just feel a, an unfortunate [00:03:00] disconnection for myself with doing f- and what I wanna get out of a conversation.

Travis Bader: Mm. '

Mark Twight: Cause I want this.

Travis Bader: 100%.

Mark Twight: I can look in your eyes-

Travis Bader: Yeah ...

Mark Twight: and you can look into mine, and, uh, and- Where do I look when I, you know, d- I know that's the camera, but I see your eyes on the screen, you know, if we're doing it remotely and I'm-

Travis Bader: And there could be lag. I've, I've had that before. You know, I had a podcast one time and the fellow's internet connection was, I think the best he got was four up and four down.

And literally I'm sweating bullets because there's 30 seconds that go by and I haven't heard a word because there's so much lag inside there, and I'm hoping I can piece it together in post-production. That, like, he was a very interesting fellow and he had a lot to say, and he, uh, he was a consummate professional, and so it all turned out.

Nobody knew that there was this lag, but we never shared that connection through the podcast, and I think the audience can feel that too.

Mark Twight: I, I think s- I think so. [00:04:00] And it's, um, I ad- r- I admire any- anyone who can do it remotely, and I've s- I've, you know, listened to and seen some.

Travis Bader: Mm.

Mark Twight: Um, th- where, like Steve with his Voice of the Mountains saying that he'll go into, you know, he has a little studio that he goes into and rents p- space, and there's somebody who knows more than all of us put together about how to make these- Right

machines work together-

Travis Bader: Right ...

Mark Twight: with their human, uh, I don't know what we are in relation to machines at this point, but, um- And, and some of those have an, a, a better intimacy to them than, th- than some others, which are just like, "Yeah, let's just use Zoom," and, you know.

Travis Bader: Well, today's the day, I think, from, uh, Terminator 2.

Isn't that when the singularity takes place, was, uh, the 29th of August, 2026?

Mark Twight: I don't remember accurately, but- Oh, no.

Travis Bader: I, I, I saw something pop up about that, and it was, uh, maybe, maybe it [00:05:00] was, uh, maybe it's right, maybe it's not. I don't know. Yeah. But, but we are getting to a point with our technology where that human connection is, is sorely lacking.

And I think- Yeah ... I think that's why podcasts are as popular as they are, because people want to be able to live vicariously through a conversation that they might just not be having th- themselves.

Mark Twight: Yeah. And, uh- It's almost a way of getting out of the house, so to speak, for, for people who may not otherwise, um, d- I mean, especially there was a period five years ago when people were, um, told to, uh, stay home.

Now

Travis Bader: how'd that work out for you? You don't seem like the type of person who, uh, deals with, uh, what do they call it? ODD, oppositional defiance disorder. I'm not gonna... I'm not a doctor and somebody to label- I- ... but I can recognize it in myself and, you know, when I see other people out there that might share the same trait.

Mark Twight: Uh, run that by me again. Oppositional defiance disorder.

Travis Bader: Yeah. They say it's a comorbidity with ADHD.

Mark Twight: [00:06:00] I, um, I wouldn't ca- I'd s- I would say that's ODO.

Travis Bader: Okay.

Mark Twight: It's oppositional defiance order.

Travis Bader: I would 100%

Mark Twight: agree with you. Be- be- because I, you know, if I'm, if I'm kind of obsessive compulsive, it's a good thing, you know?

Yes. That, that all the bills in the wallet are facing the same way and escaly- ... you know, an increase in dom- domination as they go backwards, that, that helps me.

Travis Bader: So I'm not the only one that does that.

Mark Twight: I m-

Travis Bader: Or, or back when you had CDs-

Mark Twight: We might be the only two who still carry cash, though.

Travis Bader: All, all the CDs had to be put in alphabetical order and righted- Yes

the right way so you could... Yeah?

Mark Twight: Yeah.

Travis Bader: Okay.

Mark Twight: I, I mean, there is, um... So I do have a bit of an anti-authoritarian streak that I've, uh, not... Well, I've never really considered trying to fix it, actually. It hasn't, uh, it hasn't helped me always.

Travis Bader: Where did it come from?

Mark Twight: I like to, uh, I blame, I, I place responsibility for it on my father.

Travis Bader: Yeah.

Mark Twight: Um, and it, he was a [00:07:00] National Park Service ranger.

Travis Bader: Okay.

Mark Twight: And but he, uh... So I was born in Yosemite National Park, where he worked in the, uh, late '50s, early '60s, and, uh, and then after that moved to Mount Rainier, where I was for three years before we- Mm ... went to, uh, moved into Seattle for both my sister and I to go to school.

And, uh, but he wasn't a Smokey the Bear, you know, interpretive ranger who took you on your nature hike. He went to the Federal Law Enforcement Training Center, uh, uh, back east, and he was a federal cop.

Travis Bader: There you go.

Mark Twight: So he, um, you know, he's a, he's a ranger with a gun.

Travis Bader: Sure.

Mark Twight: And, uh, and I th- and I think quite enjoyed it.

Um, uh, but that also, any, in, there, there's, uh, uh, our work, uh, you know, we, we become what we do.

Travis Bader: Yeah.

Mark Twight: And we f- fit into the culture that we are a part of.

Travis Bader: Mm-hmm.

Mark Twight: We make, we have... And that culture can change our [00:08:00] character and, or, or affect our character in some way. I would say affect, not change. Um, and, uh, so I think he dug it, you know?

And he was a, he was, uh, even after, uh, leaving the, separating from the Park Service, and he was, got a, uh, earned a PhD at University of Washington in Natural Resource Management, and then began teaching forestry, uh, at two different universities here. And, um, but even, uh, after separating, you know, no longer carrying a gun.

Travis Bader: Right.

Mark Twight: You know, f- Yeah ... uh, it, for a living, quote, unquote. It's k- it's, uh, air quotes. But, um, uh, he, he maintained that sort of Um, top-down pressuring type of, uh, means of parenting, I would say

Travis Bader: Do, do you feel that he also had a anti-authoritarian streak to him? Because I know a lot of people in law enforcement will share that.

Mark Twight: I, I don't... Well, I, I have not [00:09:00] ever considered that, but on the fly right now- Hmm ... I would say I don't think so. He was a pro- he, uh, was quite a proponent of all things to do with the bureaucracy because they were the ones who cr- you know, the bureaucracy is what creates stability and- Hmm ... and a- almost a w- I'm, I'm more educated than you, we know better than you, so let us tell you what to do.

Travis Bader: Got it.

Mark Twight: I th- Got it ... I think, um, and now you've given me something to consider, which, you know, as I sort of try to, uh, reorient myself to my relationship with him, but,

Travis Bader: um- Hmm ...

Mark Twight: hmm.

Travis Bader: So just-

Mark Twight: I, I don't think he w- I d- I, I don't think so. I, I, in, in the sense of he, yeah, po- potentially he didn't like being told what to do.

Sure. But he quite enjoyed telling other people what to do.

Travis Bader: Sure, okay. I could see that.

Mark Twight: That's, uh, uh, that's how I would des- [00:10:00] describe it. Hmm. Um, which I dislike telling other people what to do. Hmm. Uh, I mean, it is, even, you know, when I've been in, in jobs where I'm the boss and I have to delegate, I would rather the, I would rather Socratically or by other manipulative means steer the person- Hmm

to the action that is required in the situation. Um, but I also understand that I have multiple ways of commuting, communicating that are related to each of, and I'll, this is a bit of a joke, but I say to each of my personalities. Which are Mark and Francis and Twight. And Mark is, I'm here. Mark is here.

Francis is, he is riding the ADHD-

Travis Bader: Express ...

Mark Twight: Express. Uh, and he was a lot more present when I was drinking.

Travis Bader: Okay.

Mark Twight: And a shiny thing would, and he's gone. Okay. Uh, and then Twight [00:11:00] is who you don't wanna have show up.

Travis Bader: Hmm.

Mark Twight: Uh, a- a- and unfortunately in some of those work situations, especially film business, uh, type things- Um, that pers- that, that person who delegated and who hardcore told people what to do-

Travis Bader: Right

Mark Twight: uh, would come out a bit more often than I, you know, these effe- it's effective, uh- Yeah ... in getting the current job done. Also pretty effective at ending the relationship.

Travis Bader: Yeah, I could see that.

Mark Twight: Um, yeah.

Travis Bader: Yeah, I've, I've got a difficult time, um, being around people who just won't get with the program, because I don't want to be made to be a micromanager.

So I'd much rather have competent people around me that I can trust to do the job. And actually, it was Kyle Lamb who's... He says, "You know, there's a word for that. It's called command intent." Because I, I brought up, um, General Powell, and I guess he, his famous, uh, line was, or o- one of many, "Don't tell somebody how to do something, tell them [00:12:00] what you wanna see accomplished, and let them surprise you with the results."

Mark Twight: Tell them the why.

Travis Bader: Tell them the why.

Mark Twight: Yeah. And-

Travis Bader: And,

Mark Twight: and maybe a general objective out. It's-

Travis Bader: That's how I like to be able to work. This is- Yeah ... here's, here's where we're going, here's what I wanna see get done. Go ahead, you do it.

Mark Twight: And you're gonna do it differently than I would do it, but my default is to tell you to do it the way that I want.

Travis Bader: Right.

Mark Twight: W- which is, you know, um, you know, somebody's gotta know what to do, and I used to say that generally it was me. Uh, but-

Travis Bader: Well, that's what you're getting hired for.

Mark Twight: Yeah.

Travis Bader: Right? So.

Mark Twight: Yeah, exactly. And, and es- and especially, you know, if we're talking film business-

Travis Bader: Mm ...

Mark Twight: um, there's a lot of money on it. This person has to look and behave in a certain way on this particular day.

Travis Bader: Right.

Mark Twight: There's the deadline. Like, you, this is it, and it's not moving because we have a 120-day shoot, and this is what gets shot on that day.

Travis Bader: How does that affect somebody who likes to have, I'm gonna go out on a limb here based- Yeah ... on your, your work and everything else, but likes [00:13:00] to have a certain level of control over the environment around him, to have that variable of the individual who might not be putting the effort in, or who might not be, uh, on the diet or...

Mark Twight: Th- well, there were, I was given, um, because, let's see, I did nine different Hollywood films, uh, most of them with Zack Snyder- Yeah ... as the director. And Zack and his team, they trusted me implicitly. Um, and basically said, "Look, this is..." Gave me the command intent.

Travis Bader: Okay.

Mark Twight: Okay, the, um, I can't necessarily use 300 as the main example because that was, uh, I was in over my head.

Mm. You know, like I, it was the first thing. Sure. You know, first of those jobs. Some other jobs later were, were like, okay, this guy needs to, you know, he needs to look like Superman. This guy needs to not be as fat as he is. This young lady- ... needs to have muscles, and now she looks like a coat hanger. Um-

Travis Bader: Mm.

Mark Twight: You know, a- and, but [00:14:00] th- a- and these are the, and these are the, the deadlines. And, and Mark, just knock yourself out. You know, you have a budget. If you need to control the diet, which you do, then, you know- Do what you need to have done. So that if you need to build a space, I mean, in the last gym that we had for, um, Justice League in the UK at that studio was, it was the p- the pinnacle gym- Mm

yeah, um, that we were able to build. We had a really good budget for it, and because we also had a lot of people that needed to, um, to, to look a certain way. Sure. Uh, but to have someone g- come and not be on the program or- Right ... you know, they're, they're not with the program is pretty tough.

Travis Bader: I'd say so.

Mark Twight: And, um, led...

There was, there's one movie in particular where there were a couple of people who were recalcitrant, let's say. Mm.

Travis Bader: Okay.

Mark Twight: And- Good

Travis Bader: word.

Mark Twight: Uh, [00:15:00] and, you know, one of them, it's like there's this guy will... He, he arrived, uh, on the job thinking he already looked like a Spartan, let's say.

Travis Bader: Okay.

Mark Twight: Uh, and he was, his, uh, self-assessment was inaccurate.

Quite, you know, never saw a, you know, bottle of whiskey he didn't wanna finish. Sure. Never saw a cake he didn't wanna eat. Never saw- Sure ... and it j- and, and, uh, and that is frustrating and tough. And I mean, that was a, a, a really difficult job. I was, um... I mean, it, it, it went as far as to try and get this guy, you know, before filming started.

I was like, "This g- he's never gonna get there."

Travis Bader: Mm. I

Mark Twight: mean, I'm good. I'm really fucking good at this. My team is really good. We cannot save this guy.

Travis Bader: Mm.

Mark Twight: And if you want your movie to look a certain way, like you've, you're, you've just bumped the CGI budget for that particular individual. [00:16:00]

Travis Bader: Sure.

Mark Twight: Um, and, uh, you know, it g- came back with, like, the list of people who they had tried to get for the role that were unavailable, and this is the, the, here's, this is the guy.

Mm. You know? Th- this is the material you have to work with. Do your best. And I said, "Well, I've done my best in the past. You know what that looks like. This is not gonna be that. Um, but I will. You know, I'll try as hard as we can."

Travis Bader: Right,

Mark Twight: right. You know? And, uh-

The lighting is gonna be pretty important with this fella. You do... And, and, and it's, and it's incredibly frustrating, but that's also counterbalanced by the people who are just rabidly interested-

Travis Bader: Mm ...

Mark Twight: that want to learn, that understood it from the beginning. Like, "Wow, if I ch- if I go through this process," it could be a three-month, four-month, six-month process, depending on- Mm

uh, you know, what is required by the role, how much juice that [00:17:00] particular actor has, you know- Sure ... in the business also, um, and what they, and what they want to achieve. But if somebody comes in and they realize, like, "Oh, my goodness, if I take this physical journey and I utterly commit myself to it, I will be a different human being."

Travis Bader: Mm. "

Mark Twight: I will become a different human being through that process. It will affect my character. It will change..." One of the guys, uh, the, uh, Vincent Regan, who played the captain in 300, uh, I, um, I ran into him. So he, he dropped 40 pounds, uh- Wow ... for, for that, for that role. Um, like, when I first saw him, I was like...

I told the director, I go, "This is another moment where I was like, 'I'm r- I'm good, but I don't know if I'm that good.'" And, you know, it was another do your best kinda thing, and he, and Vincent went... He was fully committed.

Travis Bader: Mm.

Mark Twight: He's a Shakespearean actor. He, uh... And, uh, and, and total method. He just-

Travis Bader: Jumped right

Mark Twight: in

ju- jumped right in. Did everything. Obeyed every [00:18:00] commandment. Did, uh- Yeah ... he had one moment about four weeks in, uh, his wife flew over from England, or his girlfriend, I can't remember. I think it was his wife. Um, and met at the airport, and he came back- Hopefully

Travis Bader: not both at the same time.

Mark Twight: It... Yeah. And, and the, uh, uh, he said, "Yeah, she's, you know, I, I'm not around this weekend.

I might, I might slip a little this weekend- Mm ... because, um, she's coming over." And saw him on Monday, and he just went, "We need to keep going. This was... I had a great weekend. Thank you."

Travis Bader: Nice.

Mark Twight: And, uh, and so as his body composition changed, character changed, his relationships changed. Mm. I run into him in Cape Town.

Let's see. So I last saw him January 2006, and so I see him- Yeah, it's five or six years later.

Travis Bader: Sure.

Mark Twight: Guy's held his condition.

Travis Bader: Wow.

Mark Twight: And he said, and he just g- he just said, "Yeah, I'd, uh, in my life, everything in my life was better because of what we did, because of what I learned on that job [00:19:00] with you." And he w- he maintained all of it.

And he said, "Yeah, I'm probably a little, you know, 10 pounds heavier than I was then." But I said, "Man, you still look strong and lean and capable as a human being." And so there are things like that that completely offset the douchebag, you know- Yeah. Yeah ... version of, of whatever. And s- and, you know, people will have varying levels of commitment if they think, you know, there is a joke that you can't act your way to a six-pack.

Um, some people still think they can, or they're just like, "I'm gonna wear a muscle suit anyway, so, uh, I wanna..." You know, and it, there's, it-

Travis Bader: Well, it changes not only your physique, but it changes you mentally. It changes your aura.

Mark Twight: Yes.

Travis Bader: And you, so you've positively impacted that one individual's life in a way that will never be the same again as he goes into the future, provided he s- I mean, full stop.

Even if he stops right now- Yeah ... his life will never be the same, same again, positive impact. But you've done that with [00:20:00] a lot of people that you've never even met with your writing and the work that you've put out. Like, I'll, I, I'm gonna give you, um, s- something you probably are well aware of, but not this personal angle.

When I first, uh, heard about you, it was from a friend of mine, and he says, and he was getting into, uh, mountaineering, and he said, "Trav, you gotta come out with me." Yeah. "And there's this guy, this Mark Twight, and I tell you," and he was ex-British Army. His name's Jason Budt.

Mark Twight: Okay.

Travis Bader: And, uh, he'd done SAS selection there twice, both wintertime, both grueling selection processes.

He says, "This guy's Extreme Alpinism book that he put out is the closest thing that I've seen in print to what we were given in our SAS selection workup." And-

Mark Twight: Wow ...

Travis Bader: your work that you've put out has been adopted by Special Forces units across the world. Like, there's people you've never even seen or talked to who are looking at your work, and [00:21:00] it's affecting their lives.

Mark Twight: I, um, I was, uh, when I s- started, uh, down the road to work with, uh, different- Department of Defense is what we called it back in the day.

Travis Bader: Yeah.

Mark Twight: And it's got a different name now. DOD. Yeah. Yeah. So- The Department

Travis Bader: of War ...

Mark Twight: somebody said the other day, was like, "Yeah, you know, the, the, this was, uh, DOW something or other."

And I'm like, "You know, the Dow Jones Index? What are you talking about?" "We're talking... Oh, right. We changed the name." Yeah. Yeah. Which, you know, whatever. That's a-

Travis Bader: It used to be the Department of War-

Mark Twight: Yeah ...

Travis Bader: back in the day, and they... Sure.

Mark Twight: It's marketing.

Travis Bader: Yes.

Mark Twight: You know, it's, uh... It, anyway, when I first, um, started down that road, I mean, it was sort of happenstan- You know, the things happen in our lives that put us into situations that we never had imagined would be possible.

Mm. And at first, and when I first started doing this work, I did not realize how much the attitude and character chapter of Extreme [00:22:00] Alpinism, that book, would affect people that were not climbers.

Travis Bader: Mm.

Mark Twight: I didn't realize how applicable the ideas about nutrition, the clothing systems, uh, and that sort of thing could be extrapolated to other activities.

And, uh, it, it, that, um, those, y- the years from, I guess, '99 to sort of 2011, 2012, um, doing work with various military units and- That's right ... and intelligence groups and that kind of thing, uh, some of the most satisfying work that I've done. And it, and I realized like, oh, well, now I'm doing something of, something of, of real value-

Travis Bader: Mm

Mark Twight: in the sense that Uh, I'm not helping people recreate better

Travis Bader: Right

Mark Twight: like, or survive their recreational ambition. And, and, uh, uh, I, I say that a little bit tongue in cheek because in anything, any activity where there is [00:23:00] grave potential consequence to screwing up- Yeah ... um, matters i- if humans are trying to do it-

Travis Bader: Sure

Mark Twight: you know, in some way. And if I have some knowledge that I could share that m- you know, uh, helps you get home, then that has value regardless of what you're doing. And that is, that is a lot of what happened with the military. I was, you know, realized like, okay, these guys are... You know, I, I go to the mountains on a voluntary basis, right?

Stack the deck in my favor to the maximum level possible. It's not someone somewhere else telling me that at this time, on this day, that this thing ne- this objective needs to be handled.

Travis Bader: Right.

Mark Twight: And okay, yeah, you've been awake for two days straight. You're, you know, you're underslept, you're malnourished, you're super stressed out 'cause this is the third follow-on op that you've just done, and it needs to happen.

That, to me, w- I w- it, it just, [00:24:00] uh, it made so much, um, sense that what we had pushed ourselves to do voluntarily could have a, uh, a positive effect on those kind of things. And if it's anything- Hmm ... that likes helps you come home to your family, it helps the guy next to you come home, and then it, you know, has a positive effect on the mission.

Travis Bader: Hmm.

Mark Twight: Which es- especially as, you know, things progressed in Afghanistan, and you couldn't land helicopters right on the target anymore, and then the offsets be- you know, they start getting longer and longer and longer.

Travis Bader: Mm-hmm.

Mark Twight: You have a, you know, let's just say a eight to 10-kilometer offset on foot at high altitude in whatever weather conditions happen to be.

Um, uh, it, that changes everything by, you know... I- if you don't have the fitness, if you haven't taken care of your s- you know, I would just call the sort of mountain hygiene on the way there- Right ... of, you know, nutrition, hydration, uh, making sure to [00:25:00] minimize the stress to the extent possible, that you're rotating stress through, you know, different people in different positions- Hmm

so that somebody is getting to draft, at least cognitively, at some point, uh, you, you will be more effective when you get to the target. You know, if you, if you check all these boxes, if you are cognizant of the things that y- you know, a lot of these guys in the beginning, they had no idea that if they um, fed and hydrated themselves properly that their decision-making capacity was improved sub, you know, six hours later.

Travis Bader: Well, they never had the opportunity to see it firsthand.

Mark Twight: Well, that's, that's true also. Right. You know, and, and that particular conflict, it, um, it, it, uh, illuminated many things.

Travis Bader: Yeah.

Mark Twight: I mean, could, that could be a general and universal statement.

Travis Bader: Yes.

Mark Twight: Uh, a- and, and, you know, with different groups, a, a lot of the guys...

I mean, when [00:26:00] I first started, there was no conflict, um, uh, ongoing, you know, where the special missions units were, were, uh, required to do things that I knew anything about.

Travis Bader: Hmm.

Mark Twight: However, climbing, in to some degree, it's one of the peacetime activities that a person can undertake where the consequence of the decision that you make right now, uh, effects could be your survival- Mm-hmm

could be, uh, y- your health, could be the outcome, could be... Because things are f- you know, gravity is there. That's the enemy, and we can, and we can manipulate it to some extent, but it will, uh, it gets the final vote on all of this.

Travis Bader: 32 feet per second squared, 9.8 meters per second squared, bar none around the world.

Mark Twight: Yeah.

Travis Bader: Yeah.

Mark Twight: Ev- everyone's subject to this, to the- Mm-hmm ... to the same rules. And, and, uh, and, and it's f- you know, so there is [00:27:00] a, there is a threat. It's not a clever threat in the mountains. I would joke with, you know, some of my military students, I'm like, "The mountains are easy. There's like, they're trying, there's only f- they're only trying to kill you in five different ways."

Uh, and but a man, a man is clever. And a group of guys that don't like you can be real clever. Mm-hmm. And that is a, a grave difference. So when people, you know, w- would often, you know, before I knew anything about it, make the analogy like, "Yeah, this, you know, it's these alpine routes where there's a lot of rock fall, or it's like a big, you know, huge mortal risk involved with certain...

The, the, the terrain itself, weather conditions, and the method, the m- the, the way that you are choosing to address it- Mm-hmm ... which might be with, you know, no shield i- in a sense. Right. Right? And we would make the joke that it's like, it's like combat, which we knew nothing about. So it's like a stupid sort of comparative thing.

[00:28:00] Um, and, and then I started training the military guys, and I realized, no, it's not at all like that. Right. It's not at all like combat because no, you know, the... Again, it's, uh, you know, the, there are certain avenues, you know, or ways that you will get killed. You know, you can get killed in the mountains Nobody's making up anything new

Travis Bader: Well, how did you get sought out for that or did you seek it out yourself?

Mark Twight: Um, the, the military work came, um, uh, again, you know, like happenstance- Sure ... you know, in, in, in a way. I had been... I moved back to the States. I'd been in France for five years and, uh, tail- beginning in '94, I guess. I moved back to the US and- Yes ... and at some point in 1995, I, and I had, uh, I had not grown up shooting.

Mm. Did not grow up around guns. My father didn't want me to... You know, they're, they were hid- I'd looked in the [00:29:00] house. Sure. I know they were there.

Travis Bader: Yeah.

Mark Twight: There was this, there was a Chief Special, you know, .38 Special revolver somewhere in the house- Sure ... that I never found. There was a shotgun I never found.

There was a .30-40 Krag caliber rifle, which would've been in- in- interesting- Sure ... um, uh, somewhere in the hou- I never... I'm a clever... I was

Travis Bader: a-

Mark Twight: Never

Travis Bader: found '

Mark Twight: em, eh? Never found 'em.

Travis Bader: Okay.

Mark Twight: And, and, uh, and didn't grow up shooting, et cetera. At some point I was in the Tetons, uh, I think it was, it would've been sort of late winter 1995.

Um, and my friend Brent Hawks, who used to own the Teton Rock Gym, um, I, I was there to go, you know, climbing with him, and the weather was horrible.

Travis Bader: Mm.

Mark Twight: And he's k- like, "Yeah, we're not, we're not gonna get anything done. The next three days are bad, and then you're going home the day after that." And he said, "We should go to the shooting range."

And I was like, "Guns are stupid," you know? Yeah. You know, it does, in cons- you know, it's not consistent with my peace, love, environmentalist mentality, you know, or whatever- Sure. Sure ... shit I had in my head about it. Anything unknown we're gonna [00:30:00] judge and f- you know, fear and then judge. Mm. Uh, and I tried to resist, and he insisted.

And so we went to this, uh, shooting range just south of, uh, Jackson. And I quite enjoyed myself. I enjoyed myself so much, and I realized what it could, what it could be.

Travis Bader: Mm.

Mark Twight: And it wasn't just making noise, putting holes in paper or not, uh-

Travis Bader: Sure.

Mark Twight: Because, you know, your first exposure to... And, you know, you had a variety of different g- tools that you'll, you know, uh, let me shoot.

And, you know, big, uh, too big for me revolver. Um, you know, would've been a .44 Mag at that- Sure ... at that point, which, um, and a s- there was some sort of a Smith & Wesson semi-auto. I can't remember all of the th- anyway, so shot at the range that day. Within a week, I owned, uh, my first firearm. And, and as [00:31:00] we were speaking before we started recording- Mm

addictive personalities do things with it when they get interested in them. Of course they do. And, and so within I probably shot my first pistol competition six months after that.

Travis Bader: Wow.

Mark Twight: And then when- Just head first. And then head first. And, uh, my, um, my girlfriend at the time, uh, her brother was a, uh, grant, earned his...

He's, so he's a USPSA shooter.

Travis Bader: Mm.

Mark Twight: Uh, he's a grandmaster, and he earned his grandmaster with a single stack 1911 shooting a .45. And so whenever he went to matches, he was on the super squad with Brian Enos and Robby Leathum, and if Barnhart was there, then Barnhart was on that squad. Um, and, uh, Ron Avery was still alive at that point- Mm

and, and active. And- Some

Travis Bader: big names ...

Mark Twight: the, and so I got introduced to these guys.

Travis Bader: Mm.

Mark Twight: And then I started taking training. My first class was with Ron. Uh, [00:32:00] Ron was, had been a police officer, and then, uh, and one of his main clients for shooting, for teaching shooting to was the Secret Service, and so he was, he was very much a cop.

He reminded me too much of my father. I could not learn from him.

Travis Bader: Fair enough.

Mark Twight: So, uh, a, a really, really inter- f- you know, fascinating guy. Um, and, but, but not, uh, for me- Mm ... in, in terms of someone I could teach, uh, I could, I could learn from. That same day that, the, the day that we had, Elisa and I had, were driving from Salt Lake back to Boulder, and we were, we stopped in Montrose, where Ron was living at the time.

Had a day at the range with him, and this guy shows up in this beat-up old pickup truck, um, with the most insane stereo system in it I had ever... 'Cause I'd heard him coming from a long ways away even with our headsets on. And, um, he rolls up, and I look, you know, look at this truck, and it's, it must've been an old Chevy of some kind.

Um, and there was a little sticker on the back that said Psychoholic, and [00:33:00] I was like- ... "Oh, this guy knows who White Zombie is." Mm-hmm. He's playing Slayer right now, but he also knows... And then I'm like, "That's an unusual sort of, uh, mix of music." We started talking, and it happened to be Brian Enos. And Brian and I based, uh, you know, that's the day that our friendship started.

Mm. And, uh, he, um, I would, I would say, you know, he was my main shooting mentor. Uh, I'm gonna get to the answer to the question. Yeah, yeah. No Which is- I know you are. And, and, uh, and s- so I, you know, I was pretty far down the, you know, went pretty far down the road, uh, com- shooting competitively, and Brian was just like, "Man, this is, he's a really interesting guy.

He's, he's, uh, you know, he's a professional mountain climber and, you know, he does all these serious things, but he has found, um, something similar in competitive shooting where he can access a flow state or he can- Hmm ... be [00:34:00] 100% focused on doing the thing in this moment because... And it's not because anyone's shooting back, but because it is a serious thing.

We're sh- you know, we're shooting actual guns.

Travis Bader: Mm-hmm.

Mark Twight: And, uh And I would, uh, uh, y- went to a number of c- courses at Gunsite. I, you know, d- tried to learn as much as I could. First it was all, you know, defensive stuff, and then as, as soon as the competition- Sure ... thing started, it was-

Travis Bader: All competition.

Mark Twight: Um, it, yeah.

It, it was pretty much that. Um, although over the course of my life I've taken a l- lot of class from a lot of different people, because I think we must empty our cup and be students of something. And, uh, so at, at some point, uh, I decide that I'm not gonna shoot a single stack anymore. I wanna, I wanna, uh, the, and it, I, I want a high-cap .40 caliber gun.

D- I, uh, it needs to be a 1911 platform, um, and it needs to make major power factor- Hmm ... which at one, at the time was still 175. Okay. So, uh, there [00:35:00] was, y- you know, .38 Super could hit it if you, um, if you loaded for that. But f- uh, but I think in Limited at that time, y- it was no smaller than .40. Okay. Uh, you could shoot .38 Super open, but if you were shooting Limited with th- iron sights, then, uh, it, it was, uh, .40 or .45 were the- Those were cut off

were the opt- Yeah ... those were, those were the things. So I wanted to build a gun, and I went, I drove down from Boulder. I drove down to Arizona and lived with Brian at his, in his trailer in Apache Junction for 10 days, and we built this gun.

Travis Bader: Nice.

Mark Twight: And we developed a load for it to, you know, that I could hit, like, 176 power factor.

Perfect. Perfect. And, and, um, and it was on that trip that he said, "Hey, we're g- there's a Tuesday night steel match or a mat-," uh, maybe USPSA match, I can't remember. And, uh, "We should go down, like, 'cause you got this new gun and you wanna shoot the competition." Of course. And he's like, "You gotta, you gotta come to the..."

You know, and w- we're at the Rio Salado range, which is the mecca for-

Travis Bader: Yeah ...

Mark Twight: um, competitive shooting at that time. [00:36:00] And so I go, and this is when I met Robbie Latham.

Travis Bader: Yeah.

Mark Twight: And, uh, and those two are, uh, they're tight. They're peas in a pod. They came up together. They've, you know- Got it ... they, they, they d- you know, and Robbie is I don't know how many, y- you know, he's probably got 30 national titles at this point in all sorts of different, uh, disciplines, maybe a world title or two or three, I can't remember.

But, um-

Travis Bader: He's got a

Mark Twight: couple

Travis Bader: accolades,

Mark Twight: for sure. And he's got a couple accolades. He is, you know, they call him The Great One. Mm-hmm. You know, he is the, a- and, and he was an amazing guy. And I just, I c- you know, he's a bigger guy, and I, and watching him move, it's unbelievable. And the fact that he's just cracking jokes all the time.

If he's not shooting, he's not a serious, he's, you know, he's just making fun. He's just having fun.

Travis Bader: Perfect.

Mark Twight: Perfect. Perfect. As soon as they're like, "Ah, Latham, you know, y- you're on deck," and- It's

Travis Bader: all business ...

Mark Twight: oh my. The, the, his ability to flip the switch is something that, um, I don't know if I've ever seen it in any [00:37:00] other shooter.

To go from levity to, you know-

Travis Bader: Hmm ...

Mark Twight: the winning run- Like that. Amazing You know,

Travis Bader: Robin Horsfall was talking about that, and he was at the Iranian embassy siege- Okay ... at SAS. Yeah. The, the one I put them on the map there. Yeah. And he was talking about how the American Special Forces were like, "What are these British guys doing joking and dancing around?"

It was like, "Like, take it seriously." And Robin was like, "Well, when it's time to be serious, we'll be serious, but until then, this is how we blow off steam. This is how we, we do what we gotta do." And, and I, and I found that an interesting concept because I, in some high-performing people, I see that as a constant.

Joking, laughing, and you're like, "Is this person..." Like, like they're not putting up a front trying to prove to everybody how, uh, how good they are. But when the time comes, they're ready.

Mark Twight: They're ready, yeah. Yeah. And to see the juxtaposition between Robbie and Brian, where Brian would be, you know, he, he, he can joke.

I mean, he's a, he's a [00:38:00] wonderful man. Um, but also it's almost like he's on... Once the match starts, he's almost in a diff- on a different- Okay ... sort of psychological plane. Uh, and at one point I f- I feel like he, he asked me, he's like, "You know, there's... So in your world there's, there's not many people who joke around, like, or, you know, who are like, have that level of humor and who, uh, don't appear to take things very seriously, you know?"

Hmm. And he asked me about mountain climbing with that. And I go, "Yeah, there were some guys like that around."

Travis Bader: Right.

Mark Twight: And-

Travis Bader: That's all you gotta say.

Mark Twight: Yeah. And, and, uh, I, I was a full advocate of not, you know, training with a wooden sword at that point in my career. Hmm. You know, everything was, it was very serious all the time.

Uh, I probably took, you know, and I, and I have a tendency to overthink. So I could have been a better shooter if I could have just let go. If I, if I, um, I just shot instead of trying to drive.

Travis Bader: Hmm.

Mark Twight: You know, [00:39:00] in a sense. Hmm. And, uh, it was... Anyway, the relationship with Robbie developed. Um, and I would shoot with, you know, some with Brian and some with Robbie.

And then, you know, like their teaching styles were ver- you know, very different. Their competitive style was really different.

Travis Bader: Interesting.

Mark Twight: And, uh, what incredible mentors to have, you know? Purely by the accident of a relationship with, uh, Lisa, who later, uh, she and I were married for I guess 18 years. And, uh 16-something.

Anyway. Sure. Yeah. We were married. Yes. Um, later. At that time, not. And, um, and, but, but to get sort of, like, thrown in with the top shooters of the time when I was essentially a beginner.

Travis Bader: Hmm.

Mark Twight: Um-

Travis Bader: Were you performing like a beginner? Like, you were a beginner. You're starting in your stage, but-

Mark Twight: Yeah ...

Travis Bader: but some people, it clicks in the head a little [00:40:00] faster.

Mark Twight: I, you know, let's see. In 2000... By the time 2000 rolled around, like I've, uh, I did win the Utah State Championship in my class- Hmm ... which was C, right? So it starts out, you know, you, you have your, uh, grand master, master A, B, C, D. Mm-hmm. So C's not, you know, very far from the bottom.

Travis Bader: Sure.

Mark Twight: Uh, and, and I did it shooting minor with a single stack.

Um, w- which is, if people are competitive shooters, there's a, there's a thing there. Sure. There was something about it, especially in that, you know, that era sort of 25 years ago. But, um, because you have to shoot the points- Mm ... with a minor caliber, or you can afford, maybe afford a l- you have a little bit more margin for error if you're, you know, if you're shooting ma- you know, major power factor.

Travis Bader: Sure.

Mark Twight: Uh, you don't drop as many points for a C or a D. Right. And, um, and [00:41:00] the thing that, the, the reason that I could shoot re- pretty well is my s- my stage planning.

Travis Bader: Okay.

Mark Twight: Like, I could see a stage and understand fairly quickly how, how to shoot the stage, and it probably came from watching those guys.

Travis Bader: Hmm.

Mark Twight: I'm gonna fast-forward. I'll get back to the answer. Uh, fast-forward to, I guess it's, uh, late 2023. Uh, there was a kid that was working with us, uh, at my business in Salt Lake, and, um, is Marine and, uh, had separated, and he'd gotten some kind of interesting support from the government to, you know, to g- find a new career.

Okay. Which he wanted to start training people, uh, in, in a gym. You know- Sure ... be a physical trainer. And so he was gonna start an apprenticeship with us, but he's, but he was competitive shooting, man. He convinced me. He's like, "I know you used to shoot, you [00:42:00] know, this and that. You should come out to the range one day," so.

And I'm like, "No, you know, I don't, uh-" Hmm. "You know, I, I go and I do my practice for a defensive thing, but the competition thing, that was a time and a place. I had this fused ankle, you know, da, da, da, da, da." Hmm. And, and, and, and this. And he goes, "Come on, man." And so I go one day and I'm like, "Oh, okay." So I hung on to some of my stuff and, and, uh, um, and so then I started competing.

I- so my first match in 21 years, I get DQ'd before firing a shot. Because it, like super strict range officer, video shows that I did not break the 180. Hmm. But, you know, I'm just like, "It's your call. You're the RO," you know? So it's

Travis Bader: not gonna do you any good arguing about it there on the-

Mark Twight: Yeah, exactly. It's not g- they're, it's not gonna be reversed, and why be mad?

Yeah. You know, 'cause, um... And so I stuck around for the rest of the stage and t- you know, taped targets and reset steel and did whatever, and I realized like, okay, I, I think I might be into this again.

Travis Bader: Hmm. I

Mark Twight: had my 9 by 23, which is what I used to shoot, uh, re-barreled by my gunsmith in Salt [00:43:00] Lake, um, for 9 millimeter 'cause I don't have a reloading bench anymore.

Yeah. So I had to bu- and, you know, 9, it's, it was cheap. It was- Sure ... 240 bucks per thousand rounds. Yeah. And so I could afford to practice and, and compete. And, uh, so I had a couple of f- um, I had a g- the end of that year and then, uh, in 2024, had a pretty good season. Was same, ended up same, doing the same thing, Montana State C Class- Good for you

Single Stack champion. Yeah. Um, uh, after being away for a while. And, um- It's really enjoyable. But the thing that got me, that, that g- you know, got me back almost immediately was my ability to see a plan run a stage.

Travis Bader: Mm.

Mark Twight: And, um, I s- uh, anyway.

Travis Bader: Well, that, that mental aspect to it is, uh, when I talk to high-level shooters, that's where they spend the majority of their time, and it makes sense.

I mean, everyone says, "Oh, if you're playing basketball, you know, it's 90% thinking, [00:44:00] 10% doing. If you're shooting, it's 90% mental, 10% doing." And you go see a coach-

Yeah ...

and they spend 100% of their time on that 10% aspect of the, the actual- Sure ... pulling the trigger, and trigger press, and stand, and all the other stuff, and what your grip looks like.

But the mental side, like I've seen people who've been competitive shooters for most of their life, and they're middle of the pack. Yeah. Middle-low of the pack. Why aren't they higher? And I time and time again come to the same thing. I don't think they believe they can do it, or they don't have the, um, the mental management process to, to achieve at a higher level.

Mark Twight: Yeah. Some of it, some of it I think, you know, to be around, it's the culture around shooting sports is fascinating generally.

Travis Bader: Mm. Mm. Mm.

Mark Twight: Uh, and, and, and let's just d- d- Sure ... and not restrict it to USPSA. You know- Mm-hmm ... if I'm like, ah, go out to public land and watch people how, you know, their, their relationship with [00:45:00] firearms and that sort of thing.

Travis Bader: Sure.

Mark Twight: It's, it's a, a, a learning thing, but I think some of those people who stay sort of, there isn't an ambition to be better.

Travis Bader: Mm-hmm.

Mark Twight: Because you need, when you're around someone who has it, like Lucas, this, uh, this kid, he, he had it, you know? And he, um, he ended up eventually going to nationals, had some malf- if I remember, uh, he could only afford one gun and had a malfunction, borrowed a gun, you know, something.

And, and there, there will be things like that, but he was, he was practicing. He was ambitious. Mm. He wanted to climb the ladder. Very different from guys that like, you know-

Travis Bader: It's a social thing ...

Mark Twight: shoot five, you know, misses on a stage, and they're just kind of like, "Yeah, I just can't, uh, today," you know? Or, you know, or whatever.

Yeah. And, and there is, um- It does, it takes something, and it also, uh, I, I mean it, it, it takes a number of different things. Yes, the technical-

Travis Bader: Mm ...

Mark Twight: [00:46:00] aspect, which it could be more than 10%, but we'll just call it 10. Sure. I, I don't, I don't know, um, w- what it is. It, the, you know, some of the things completely mystify me.

I, you know, I've... A lot of, when I've had really magnificent runs where I, you know, I shoot a, a, a master score- Mm ... as a C-class shooter, um, I don't know what it was.

Travis Bader: Were you in a flow state?

Mark Twight: Y- for sure.

Travis Bader: So

Mark Twight: subconscious shooting? But, but can, but, but can I direct that? Can I turn on the flow state at will in these circumstances?

It would take me a, a long s- and this is the beauty of, you know, the, uh, climbing to get, you know, especially a big mountain to get you in a flow state-

Travis Bader: Mm ...

Mark Twight: is there is the, is, uh, an entire preparatory process-

Travis Bader: Mm-hmm ...

Mark Twight: of excising, you know... It's the three weeks before leaving on the trip where you start to get rid of all of the trivia [00:47:00] in your life.

You start to, you know, excise the things that do not matter, will not matter-

Travis Bader: Mm ...

Mark Twight: when you leave. There's then, if it's a Himalayan trip, well, you're hiking to the mountain for c- you know, at least a week.

Travis Bader: Mm-hmm.

Mark Twight: Back in the day. Mm-hmm. Now you can fly-

Travis Bader: Sure ...

Mark Twight: um, to a, to a lot of, uh, zones. But you had a, a- at least a week, then you've got to, you know, if it's gonna be a high altitude thing, you know, you're trying to get to over 7,000 or 8,000 meters, well, then you're acclimatizing for a month.

And all through that process, you are, um, cultivating what will become an on-demand flow state.

Travis Bader: Mm.

Mark Twight: With competitive shooting-

Travis Bader: It's on ...

Mark Twight: it's on. It's almost an instantaneous thing that needs to occur. And I-- And there's also something else that develops from climbing which will hinder competition in other sports, and happened-- I could see it in shooting, and I could certainly see it when I was starting to race my bike.

Travis Bader: Wow.

Mark Twight: Um, [00:48:00] was the, th- that you never, uh, you never-- You always leave something in your back pocket. There is always something in reserve. Mm. Because if, if, if you go all the way to the line in the mountains, this is when, uh, you know, you need to, you need to leave something to get down. Right. You need to leave something to handle the unforeseen circumstances that happen.

If it's the surprise storm, it's the rock that hits your partner. Yeah. That, you know, suddenly now it's a we need to save ourselves kind of thing. Right. But you always need to have that in the back pocket. You can't be up on the limit all the time. But if you wanna be a, a really good shooter, you need to be, you need to be shooting at your limit all the time.

Travis Bader: Mm.

Mark Twight: You need to be-- Because you cannot get beyond it if you don't-

Travis Bader: Push it ...

Mark Twight: if you don't push it.

Travis Bader: Right.

Mark Twight: And, and I think there's a, um, the, there is a, uh, in, in, in that, you know, the, the group of shooters who are still middle of the road there, I think it also has to [00:49:00] do with failure and self-image

Travis Bader: I could see that

Mark Twight: And if I'm, you know, a really, you know, if I'm trying to be better and I don't get better, then what does that say about me as a human?

You know, what will they think? What will they say?

Travis Bader: I see that a lot, honestly. I, uh, I liken it to the Sports Illustrated, uh, curse. If you're on the cover of Sports Illustrated, they say, "Oh, it's a curse to be on the cover because you're gonna go down from there." Yeah. Well, of course, you're at the top of the game.

Yeah. You're gonna go down, and then these shooters that go in, and they expect that they're gonna be on the cover or the top, or they talk themselves up, and inevitably, they don't shoot as well as the people who can come in and be humble and, uh, keep, keep that ego in check. And, like, like, that can be hard, especially when everyone else is looking at them saying, like, "You're a good shot.

You're really good." And there's this external elevation that starts happening.

Mark Twight: And, and, and that, that creates an expectation- Right ... and then you're trying to [00:50:00] match that. I mean, you'll never- Yeah ... outperform your self-image.

Travis Bader: Mm. I

Mark Twight: mean, there's a, there was a, is it, uh, yeah, one of the great shooting books with, it might be With Winning in Mind or something, Lanny

Travis Bader: Basham.

Lanny, yeah. Um- Uh, uh, Linda Miller, Keith Cunn- Cunningham put a, a mental marksmanship book out based on, I think it was Lanny Basham's, uh, he does... He was o- an Olympic coach, right?

Mark Twight: Yeah.

Travis Bader: Yeah. I

Mark Twight: mean, a real, and, and- Mental

Travis Bader: marksmanship, yeah ...

Mark Twight: and there was this, there was something i- in that book which had to do, and this is something I translated to the gym, um, and, and with, with people, is that, you know, you will never outperform your self-image, and you have to be able to...

Because it will, if you, you know, i- if you find yourself at the, you know, in the lead position in the foot race, when you think of yourself as a top 10- Mm ... you know, runner, you will do something to put yourself back in the top 10.

Travis Bader: Mm-hmm.

Mark Twight: Uh, you know, that was sort of the, the, uh, position in this book, and I was like, "Man, I have-" What a man thinks he'll do.

Yes. And I've seen it over and over and [00:51:00] over again in d- in these different, in, uh, situations. And so I, I think it was, he was 100% correct about that. I had a, another shooting mentor. Um, he was a, A and moved, became a master while we were together. It was when I was living in Colorado. And he had this thing that he did.

I don't think he really cared about the, uh... He wanted to improve, but he wasn't dependent on the outcome of, of what would happen on any given day. At the start of every stage, his little vocal mantra was, "All right. Let's try it

Travis Bader: Interesting

Mark Twight: And that to me was seeing, seeing, hearing him say it over and over again at matches- Let's try

Travis Bader: it

Mark Twight: um, and watching him improve, I was like, "Oh, he's just given himself permission to fail."

Travis Bader: Mm.

Mark Twight: He's given himself permission to t- to try as hard as he can, to go as fast as he can, and man, if the, if it runs off the road, um- Okay ... [00:52:00] well, he'll know.

Travis Bader: Yeah.

Mark Twight: But he basically d- a- and so to see him do it and then to try and integrate that into my own, you know, though I have some issues with temperament which don't necessarily allow me, you know, the, the perfectionist, I want the perfect run even if it's- Mm

at a lower level.

Travis Bader: Mm. So that's going back to you, your overthinking it as opposed to driving the vehicle. You're thinking about driving the vehicle.

Mark Twight: Y- yes. Okay. Or I'm trying to manage all of the thing, you know, the air conditioning, the stereo, the, okay, are the RP- what are the RPMs, y- you know, at right now, and should it be more?

What is... Is the mileage better here? Am I gonna be able to accelerate it around this car? You know, what gear do I need to put it in? What's the temperature doing? What's the oil pressure say? Right. What's... You know, it's like trying to control all this shit that is out of my control, but I, but I imagine that-

Travis Bader: Mm

Mark Twight: myself being in control. And it's-

Travis Bader: Funny how we do that, eh?

Mark Twight: Yeah. And, uh, b- well, yeah. The mountains are really good at pushing, at, at getting you out of [00:53:00] control, so you have to deal with stuff.

Travis Bader: Mm-hmm.

Mark Twight: Uh, which, you know, the... I have to get out of con- you know, if I'm shooting a p- a match, I have to get it to get out of control voluntarily-

Travis Bader: Mm

Mark Twight: in order to, i- in order to improve, to, to go. And, and it was a thing where it was like I wanna have a really good run, and even if it puts me, you know, if I'm capable of shooting A scores, um, d- and at a certain speed, but it needs... In order to be in control, this is where I-

Travis Bader: What does, what does it do to you psychologically if you push yourself to the point and give yourself permission to fail and you don't shoot the scores that you'd want to?

Like, does it start collapsing psychologically for yourself or everyone else? 'Cause there is an external expectation for you as well.

Mark Twight: I don't know because I don't think I ever got to the point where I could truly-

Travis Bader: Okay ...

Mark Twight: let go and be free. Um, [00:54:00] I, you know, again, uh, I mean, the, one of the gunsight courses that I did, uh, Pat Rogers was teaching.

And it was a pistol carbine course. And, uh, you know, I get the certificate of completion or whatever the thing is, and then I got a special extra certificate, which was the Einstein Award.

Travis Bader: Oh, for overthinking everything.

Mark Twight: He s- and it was just like, "Do you know, do you remember that one jungle run where you ran up the g- the little gorge there, and there were targets around and this and that?

And, and I was screaming at you and, and pushing, and you had to overc- because I was like the, the vicious little leprechaun," which is sort of, uh, uh, anybody who knew Pat Rogers, uh, he was, he was that guy. He was that guy. He was like behind me and, and, you know, yelling. He goes, "And I got you out of your comfort zone.

And you were basically trying to run away from me while shooting targets at the same time. Do you remember that?" And I was like, "Yeah. That was a really good run." He goes, "That's how you need to shoot." [00:55:00]

Travis Bader: Mm.

Mark Twight: That's how, that, I-

Travis Bader: That's a good coach.

Mark Twight: That's a real ... Yeah. Yeah. And, and, you know, he was a w- um, spent a c- a couple of weeks with him that, uh, that year.

Uh, a week at gunsight and then a week, um, with SOTG at Camp Pendleton where he was teaching a, uh, a, another pistol, MISAK pistol carbine course, which I got invited to. And- Mm ... uh, with all these guys who then became, you know, the, the, the DET One got stood up basically out of, out, you know, out of SOTG and First Force.

And, uh, Bob Coates was the guy whom, uh, was there. He was there at that, that course. He was super ... He was really mad because the civilian was out shooting some of his people. Um, some hills were run. Uh, I had a 1911, my .45 go down, uh, and they couldn't fix it because Uh, it was a, it was not a standard pistol.

It had a .38 super firing pin- Mm ... you know, [00:56:00] to, for whatever reason. And so the armorers there couldn't fix it, so I had a backup Glock 19. And then, uh, Pat Rogers was like, "If you're gonna shoot a 9 mil, you have to shoot everything twice. You can use that gun if you want, but now you have to shoot everything twice, even the steel."

Travis Bader: Mm. Like, okay.

Mark Twight: I mean, I was nervous, but it turned out okay. Mm. You know? It... But again, a really good coach. You know, someone who, uh, could move me out of the comfort zone. And, and I, you know, as I maintained, you know, after, uh, you know, my C status, eventually I earned B class and then stopped shooting competitively for 20 years.

Mm. So I, I do f- apologize, you know, for letting those mentors down, 'cause they did invest in me, and I could have been a better shooter than I was had I not overthought things. But Pat was one of the ones I never [00:57:00] wanted to... I, I was like, "Man, he really believes in me."

Travis Bader: So

Mark Twight: why'd you stop? It's a, um

I don't know

Travis Bader: Because I was looking through different things, and I think you've had, I'd say, seven lives, if not more, in one lifetime. And I see two of them that you have, um, voluntarily, or that, that you have continued with. But the, um-

Mark Twight: Which are the... Which-

Travis Bader: Well, let's see. Uh, and these are just my notes.

They could be anything, right? But, um, um, so we've got Mark Twight, the punk, and it seems that that stayed with you. Mark Twight, the alpinist, and you voluntarily give, gave up on alpinism. And I shouldn't say gave up on, because that's got a negative connotation to it. Yeah. But, but you made a, a, a decision to, uh, to not pursue further.

Uh, Mark [00:58:00] Twight, the defense consultant, the trainer, the writer, which you've continued, the publisher, and, uh, now a team of one. The, uh-

Mark Twight: Yeah. Back to just kinda full circle. Um,

Travis Bader: uh- But, but what I'm seeing in here- Yeah ... I'm seeing, uh, conscious decisions to push things to the limit and then beyond. And as well, conscious decisions, like in your book you'd write about, like, "I'm never going to the mountains again," throwing your tools.

And like, "That's it. I'm gonna get rid of everything." And, "Okay, oh, here we go. We're doing it again. We're back into it." Yeah. But the... It's, it's an interesting... There's a mental management process that you possess that clearly has worked well for you, that people have sought you out, different dev groups, SF forces, uh, film companies.

Uh, and it's not just the, um, the accomplishments, which are pretty impressive, [00:59:00] but I think it it- Thank you ... is the underlying process for which you get to those accomplishments which I find really interesting, which is the common thread that I see running from childhood to where you are now. And of that, there's also, there's an all or nothing sort of approach to things.

There's a, "Okay, I've done it. I'm out. Let's... What's the next thing?" And-

Mark Twight: Mm-hmm

Travis Bader: And I'll be quiet and I'll let you-

Mark Twight: Yeah. Let, allow me to... I- the one-- I mean, so I was a climber, right? And that was what I dedicated 20 years to. And when I stopped, it was because, um, you know, I'd been on a path to figure s- out how to do things.

And it was, you know, one of the early routes in the Cascades, you know. It was like, yeah, we did this thing in 20 hours round trip that most people do in three days.

Travis Bader: Mm-hmm.

Mark Twight: Eye-opening. [01:00:00] Like, man, if you don't sleep, you don't have to carry a sleeping bag. You don't need a tent. You know? Like, and then how do these- But nobody was doing that.

But nobody was doing that. And then it took, and then it took going to-- For-- Really the progression for that started when I went to Europe, and I saw what, you know, where they realized like, "Oh, the mountains aren't-- We're really overly competent now. The mountains aren't getting any taller or any harder."

Travis Bader: Hmm.

Mark Twight: And the concept of the enchainment developed out of that, of-- And especially the way the Mont Blanc Massif is set up, where if you climb up one north face and descend the south face, you're at the bottom of another north face. Hmm. And, well, why not climb that one? And you go down the backside of that, and there just happens to be another one, and then maybe you end up in Italy, and you hitchhike home through the tunnel or something.

And so the, there was a l- the, there-- But this progression was, you know, how do we, um, A, do harder things, uh, a- and then B, do more cont- more continuous things? In the, in the [01:01:00] sense of, you know, if, okay, if I, if the thesis is if I don't take a sleeping bag, then I can't stop, well, how long can you go? And what does it take to go for...

You know, when we did the, uh, new route on Mount Hunter in 1994, w- um, man, from-- We slept... Let me try. We had a long day the first day. We slept on a ledge, and then from that ledge, we basically went 39 hours nonstop from there. The buttress, uh, the North Buttress had been, the fastest it had been climbed was six days.

And so we made it 72 hours round trip, um, base camp to base camp. And, but, but with that 39-hour day, essentially. Mm. And so how do you... What fitness does that require? What sort of nutrition and hydration support does that require? How much w- you know, what can you afford to carry? You know, it's at that time where, you know, the lightest bivy sack on the market [01:02:00] weighed over a pound, and then we found these ones that Satsuno, who owned a company called Montbell in Japan- Hmm

made these seven-ounce bivy sacks. He goes, "Yeah, they're not single use, but they're close." You know, and it was a, it was a Gore-Tex bivy sack, super lightweight material, but it was two layer instead of three. Hmm. And so if you're, you know, you're, uh, dela- you're, you're not delaminating, but you're basically wearing the Teflon membrane out r- off of the inside-

Travis Bader: Hmm

Mark Twight: uh, by using it.

Travis Bader: Hmm.

Mark Twight: Yeah. Is that worth, you know, a pound of weight savings? Oh, yeah. Oh, oh yeah, because what does that, what does that mean? What's, you know, if, if every ounce equals 100 calories, if I can save a pound, I've got 1,500, 1,600 more calories that I can carry for the same base weight in my pack if I can- Is that what

Travis Bader: you calculated it to?

Mark Twight: Uh, roughly. Oh. Because carbohydrate gels, I mean, at that time in '94, I was working with, uh, Sport Street Marketing, which was Gu, which is [01:03:00] Dr. Bill Vaughn, um, who came from Power B- He, uh, started the PowerBar company, but left that because he realized that gels were the way of the future.

Travis Bader: Mm.

Mark Twight: And so we were, you know, kind of on the forefront of that whole thing.

I would get Ziploc, gallon Ziploc bags of whether it's a flavor test or he's saying- Different gels ... "Oh, what if we put, you know, this supplement in? You know, if we put more amino acids in, you know, is it still... Does it..." And that sort of improves, you know, the, your cognitive hear-ness. Hmm. You know, your... A- and, uh, and, and you'll be sharper and, and you, and it won't have the same speedy effect that caffeine will.

It won't have the same vasoconstrictive effect that caffeine will. Hmm. Like, all of this stuff was happening at, kind of at that time. And, and so that is like one, one ounce of carbohydrate gel was 100 calories. So that is sort of how I equated it, and when it was like, okay, what's the limit? The pack cannot weigh more than 35 pounds How are we gonna do that?

Travis Bader: Mm.

Mark Twight: And because that's, you know, hey, uh, one th- one third of [01:04:00] body weight, you know, is, uh, would be ideal.

Travis Bader: Sure.

Mark Twight: You know, but that would be 50 pounds for me.

Travis Bader: Mm.

Mark Twight: That's way too much. I can't climb hard there, you know. And we had this whole pull-up test thing that we would do with weight on your back, you know, max pull-ups, you know, with noth- no weight, and then start adding and adding.

And man, you, you get to a point where, uh, you know, y- if, if you can do 15 pull-ups and then you can only do 10 when you put, you know, d- 20 pounds in a, in a bag, well, adding another 20 pounds doesn't just get you to five. No. It basically you know, now you're down in, uh, three. It, it's squared. You know, it wasn't, it wasn't a, it wasn't definitive- Mm

but it was a way to explain things and to wrap our heads around it. And so it's like, okay, if we g- went 39 hours nonstop, well, what, what could we do if we could go 48? What could we do if, you know, if we could go further? What does that open up?

Travis Bader: Mm.

Mark Twight: Which ended up, you know, [01:05:00] for, for me, the, the, the final big project was the Slovak Direct on Denali with Steve House and Scott Backes, and we thought we could do it in 48 hours, but it took 60.

And, you know, it's a w- it's a route, you know, where it was 11 days for the first ascent and 1,000 feet of fixed rope. Um, and then seven days for the second ascent, alpine style. And, um, and then the 60-hour ascent. And now it's been done in, uh, under 18.

Travis Bader: Wow.

Mark Twight: Um, but that was a long time af- you know, it was a lot of years after the fact.

But that was the progression that we were trying to make. The next step after Denali for a single-push style ascent was to go to the Himalayas. And I was at a point in life where I had... The way I explained it to myself and then others was I have too much holding me to the ground now. I'm married. I own a home.

I have this dog that I really love. Mm. I have work. And it was [01:06:00] not possible for me to... Uh, there was no way I could go to the Himalayas for three months, or that's what I imagined.

Travis Bader: Mm.

Mark Twight: Um, the way that I could in 1986, 1988.

Travis Bader: Right.

Mark Twight: Those, um, and/or go to Russia for, you know, six weeks, or, you know, whatever. Uh, uh, a- and that was sort of the...

I realized, like, oh, this... You- The next thing is to take these hard technical routes in the Himalayas in a single-push style. Yes, um, Erhard Loretan and Jean Troillet and Wojciech Kurtyka, Pierre Alain Steiner, Alex McIntyre- Yeah. You know, they had done these, these Himalayan routes in sort of a s- night naked style is what Wojciech would call it.

Um, but in a single-push sort of style, but they were relatively non-technical routes.

Travis Bader: Mm.

Mark Twight: You know, I still think the, the peak Himalayan, uh, achievement in that sense is Erhard and Jean, uh, doing, [01:07:00] uh, the north side of Everest and f- you know, with no packs. You know, one guy gets the fuel bottle, the o- and the, and the, the pan.

The other guy gets the stove. Take a few snack bars. Right. A pint of water each, you know, essentially. Um, 30-- 43 hours round trip from, from the base, and that was, I think, you know, it's 36 hours up, no oxygen, you know, nothing, no ropes. Um, and they-- And it was-- The weather was so mild, they spent two hours on the summit.

Travis Bader: Hmm.

Mark Twight: And then because it was post-monsoon and it wasn't... You know, that route can be really icy. But right on the tail end of the monsoon, it was all snow, and they bum slid most of the North Face of Mount Everest. So when somebody says, "I skied off the top without oxygen." And I'm like, "Those dudes slid down, didn't need skis."

It's a joke. But, um, but so we were-- That, that progression of, you [01:08:00] know, trying to find out, trying to learn the answer of how light is too light- Um, I couldn't take the next step to the Himalayas, but we passed the torch to Steve, and he did, you know. Hmm. With, um, uh, you know, 9/11 happened, so it took some time to get over there, but, you know, new route on K7 in 44 hour, you know, single push of 44 hours round trip.

Pretty amazing. And that ultimately, for him, translated into the, uh, central pillar of the Rupal Face with Vince in 2005.

Travis Bader: Hmm.

Mark Twight: Um, where, man, did, uh, the every th- thing that, skill that he had amassed, all of the experience that he had put together to lead up to that thing. You know, anything he did after that, um, yeah, cool.

But that route on Angaparbat, you know, it's the biggest wall in the world. Hmm. It's a new route. He got [01:09:00] really close. They got, uh, he got really high with Bruce Miller in previous year, and, uh, um, and then altitude got a vote.

Travis Bader: Mm-hmm.

Mark Twight: And he was real lucky to, to get down, and Bruce played a big role in that.

But, uh, for him and Vince, you know, he, he... Steve was telling me about the food that they put together. You know, he said, "Like, for the route, I knew it would take this long. I knew that w- our appetite was gonna diminish over time." He packed each day's rations for the two of them in the States before they left.

Travis Bader: Hmm.

Mark Twight: So all of the accli- you know, and that stuff was, you know, that was set aside and, and, you know, the last day it was like, yeah, we had a gel each and two, you know, a package of soup or something, you know? And it was, but it was just like this diminishing amount of caloric intake because you know, why carry it if you know you're not gonna be able to get it down?

Travis Bader: Sure.

Mark Twight: And, uh, and everything so meticulously planned. The, you know, the homemade sleeping bags or sleeping system quilt with the foot pockets in it kind of thing. The, [01:10:00] um, the super lightweight- So light ... tent, which, you know, now dime a dozen, they're everywhere. Sure. But in 2005, you know, that, that- Not so much

that cert- tent with single-wall fabric, you know, lighter than any of the previous, like, integral designs. Obviously, there was a three-layer single-wall t- Yeah ... you know, tent fabric, Bibler, same, same kind of thing. Um, Garuda, a couple of others, but, you know, um, a, a, a tighter weave, more of a, um, um, Pertex type of fabric, uh, you know, wasn't so common in that time.

And so everything was, um, you know... We were on this journey. Scott and I got off. Steve continued He eventually got off. Other people continued. Hmm. And now, you know, then it's suddenly there's inflatable portaledges. Suddenly there's g- you know, guys doing the Slovak in, you know, t- 21 hours, and then got it down to 17 or 18 or whatever it was.

And, and you're just like, [01:11:00] "Man, it's wild." It was necessary for me to step off because I couldn't make that step. And I had also learned everything I was gonna learn. And the... To, to me, I think the, the end of one's life is when he, uh... is repetition.

Travis Bader: Hmm.

Mark Twight: You start doing the same thing over and over again.

Travis Bader: That was my...

Well, so Nims Dai, I was speaking with, uh, Catherine Bellotto, who's with his, um, um, I guess a marketing team there and-

Mark Twight: Okay ...

Travis Bader: and, um, she had contacted me in, um, January, I think it was, and says, "Trav, just one more time, tell me what it is. Like if you were to sit down with Nims and, and talk with him, what would you say?"

And, and I said, "Well, like I wanna know about that repetition thing." Yeah. "I wanna know what, um, purpose looks like after achievement. Is it rinse and repeat, or is it..." [01:12:00] And she says, "Nobody's said that. That's interesting." 'Cause to me, I find that interesting. Oh,

Mark Twight: yeah.

Travis Bader: And so she says, "Tell you what, leave September, mid-September to mid-November open, and we'll touch base end of August, and, um, we'll-- You're either coming to Nepal or to the UK to-" Yeah

um, uh, to do a podcast." I said, "Fantastic. Sounds good." Unfortunately, we know what happened there. Yeah. But, um, there is someone who's taken a different approach than, um, the Alpine style. He's, he's going up there with camps- Yeah ... and, and, and all the rest. Different approach when it comes to media. Different- Yep

but, but still very, um, very driven and-

Mark Twight: Oh, yeah ...

Travis Bader: very, like pushing to, to extremes.

Mark Twight: I- it's, I, I think this is a, a, an interesting thing, and we get, we get stuck in our w- ways. Like if I'm, if I'm at the top of the food chain, it's cool to stay at the top of the food chain, [01:13:00] you know? Or something like that. But if, if your, if your goal is to cont- always to be learning, then at a certain point, you're going to, uh...

Th- there will be an activity which no longer... L- like I- I'm not gonna learn any more by continuing to do this thing.

Travis Bader: There's a diminishing return on the efforts going in.

Mark Twight: Exactly.

Travis Bader: And, and I get a sense that it's not just learning, but I get a sense that you kinda wanna burn the industry down in certain areas and to see it reborn in a better way, or in a way that's, uh, that seems better.

Um- Is that accurate? You,

Mark Twight: you... Uh, that was an accident of timing. I think I know what you're referring to. I- l- let's not keep it... I, I shouldn't be cryptic. Um, the, if There was, uh, an... I mean, my relationship with climbing was, [01:14:00] you know, I th- I... If I come to it as a punk, and there's a lot of, you know, classical music loving, Victorian sort of romanticists in the mountains, and that's what it, you know, th- everything is beautiful.

And I'm like, "Well, how about that guy that was right next to me when he got hit in the face with a rock, and then he fell 1,000 feet? That wasn't that beautiful."

Travis Bader: Mm.

Mark Twight: It wasn't that ni- You know, there's, there's... And, and in, i- if to make a musical analogy, all of the sort of glam rock, prog rock was... Like, it was a...

An, an, and pop even. It's like a, it's a fantasy journey that it takes you, takes you, takes one away from reality.

Travis Bader: Yes.

Mark Twight: And, uh, a- and punk rock was the opposite. You know, these are the social realities that, you know... And no, we can't play our instruments. You're absolutely right. Mm. But we make up for that with our ferocity, with our commentary, with, um, [01:15:00] showing our lives, uh, as, as they are.

Like, we're not gonna try to, uh, you know, uh, sort of avoid these things.

Travis Bader: Mm.

Mark Twight: If I bring that attitude into climbing, you know, it's... There, there was a, um-

Travis Bader: It makes sense now.

Mark Twight: Now is- Yes ... all of a sudden. So, so I have a, like a different sort of... You know, somebody would write like a, a Bonington book, you know, about like Everest on Sund- you know, whatever, Everest the Hard Way.

Mm. I mean, that was one of the better ones. But, um but there were, uh, there were these giant books of, you know, thousands and thousands and thousands of words about one expedition.

Travis Bader: Mm.

Mark Twight: I'm like, I can dispose of that in like a two-minute punk song.

Travis Bader: Mm.

Mark Twight: Because those two minutes are the, the distillation of what matters of that whole thing, because I'm not, uh, uh...

You know, and, and people were like, "Hey, did you enjoy Nepal?" And I'm like, "What are you talking about?" And they're like, "Well, you know, the culture and the, and the [01:16:00] this and the that, and you had to walk..." And I'm like-

Travis Bader: I was on a mountain ...

Mark Twight: I was getting a... I had blinders on. I was on my way to the mountain.

Travis Bader: Mm.

Mark Twight: Um, which I realized looking, you know, sometime later in my career, I looked back and I was like, man, I was, uh, uh, I was present in those places, but I was not sensitized when I was in those places to anything but my ambition and the, and the goal.

Travis Bader: It's interesting you use that word sensitized, because I believe that was the word that you used when you, um, decided to get out of alpinism because you weren't feeling a sensitivity towards the mountains, and it's also the same word in a relationship to alcohol. When you stopped drinking, you were feeling- Yeah

resensitized.

Mark Twight: Yeah. I, and I th- I th- you know, I d- I don't have a regret about like if, okay, if alcoho- alcohol was a useful tool for me Um, it, yes, I had a relationship with it that was somewhat destructive in, you know, when, especially [01:17:00] younger, you know- Sure ... 'cause that's what it, that's, that's what it does.

Sure. Uh, in one way or another. But as a, as a mechanism, a means of accessing an internal environment that... I mean, I did really good writing when I was drinking, and then it, uh, and then it went too far, to the, to the point where, uh, I wasn't drinking in order to write. Mm-hmm. I was pretending to write so that I could drink.

Travis Bader: Why do you think you did better... Why do you feel your writing was better when you were drinking?

Mark Twight: Uh, it gave, um, because- It, it, it was, uh, the, the, the disinhibition- Mm ... that would come. The l- the, um... There was a c- an, a clarity that it allowed me, um, uh, to see myself. There was a, a, and I wanna say disinhibition.

Like, I could write exactly what I thought.

Travis Bader: Mm.

Mark Twight: What [01:18:00] I was thinking, what I was feeling even, uh, when there were no breaks. And then sometimes I would wake up and I'd go... A- and, and it would be good enough. Sometimes, uh, I would just review it the next morning and be like, "Oh, man." Like, the, an essay I just republished called Control, Alt, Delete.

Um, that one, uh, I know, I, I, I know which hotel room I was sitting in, you know, which job- Mm ... I was on when I wrote it, which... And, uh, yeah, I s- I know the, I know exactly what the bottle looked like, you know? Mm-hmm. That, that... And, but there was, there was something about self-restraint that, uh, that alcohol freed me from.

Travis Bader: Mm.

Mark Twight: Uh, and, and maybe that's an insecurity as a writer. Maybe that's insecurity w- with, you know, my own relationship to myself that needed to be, [01:19:00] uh, released-

Travis Bader: Mm ...

Mark Twight: um, in order to write. And I, and, and I, I don't ha- I'm a good writer. You know, I look, I read my writing now, and I'm like, I've spent... I mean, the first thing ever pu- you know, it's 40 years that I've kind of been trying to do this thing.

Travis Bader: Mm.

Mark Twight: Sometimes I wish I could do it, but, you know, if I could maintain the cons- I'm an essayist.

Travis Bader: Sure.

Mark Twight: And, uh, uh, and s- I- anybody who can maintain their writing discipline and the theme for an entire long form sort of piece is, it still amazes me.

Travis Bader: Mm.

Mark Twight: It blows me away. Someone who can write dialogue amazes me.

Sure. Um, a friend of ours wrote a book this, you know, a couple y- it was published two years ago now. And, and, uh, he said, yeah, it was, uh, it was, like, 80% narrative and 20% dialogue, but the split, A, for, y- you know, for anything to flow in, you know, in this genre, it's gotta be [01:20:00] 60/40.

Travis Bader: Mm.

Mark Twight: And then that's gotta be 60 dialogue.

Travis Bader: Mm.

Mark Twight: 40% narration. And I'm like, that's amazing. Uh, I keep, yeah. Anyway, the, um, I th- I, I, I guess it was just like s- it, releasing the brakes, and, and alcohol gave me permission to be me With a keyboard to express those thoughts. And, uh, but it, then there's also a repetitive nature to it, like in the sense of what, what aspect of our personality, our character, our soul, um, does alcohol allow us to access?

Travis Bader: Right.

Mark Twight: Right? Is it-

Travis Bader: Not always the best.

Mark Twight: Not always the best.

Travis Bader: No.

Mark Twight: And, and I could d- I could read essays, go back now, and I was like, "Oh, that was whiskey."

Travis Bader: Mm. '

Mark Twight: Cause that's angry. Mm. That's angry writing right there. But if it was clear, if it was vodka, generally, um, tequila sometimes, but vodka, pretty [01:21:00] clean, but also sad.

Travis Bader: Mm.

Mark Twight: Like it gave me, it, like my relationship with death and loss, um, freed by, you know, vodka, I don't know how many ounce, you know, what is it, whatever it is. Sure. You know, there's, uh, uh- Was extraordinary, but also ultimately repetitive and not, you know, I'm, oh, I'm repeating myself with, you know... Not only these experiences are repeating themselves in my life- Mm

but the themes that I am writing about are love and loss over and over and over, which-

Travis Bader: Kiss or kill ...

Mark Twight: which is not, you know, yeah, exactly. Yeah. And not a, not a bad thing- Mm-hmm ... necessarily, but what is more, y- you know, is that doesn't, there isn't then an influence on generations to come or people who are f- you [01:22:00] know, the, you know, what were the books that influenced me and how did they make me feel?

What was it about these, you know, what was it about Sun and Steel, which is sort of Mishima's... I mean, yes, I've read Spring Snow, I've read Runaway Horses, a, you know, number of his books. But to me, okay, the, the, that all got me to Sun and Steel.

Travis Bader: Mm.

Mark Twight: And that was the important one because he s- he, he put together the importance of not separating the physical from the psychological.

Travis Bader: Mm.

Mark Twight: You know, why would you leave your body here while your intellect goes soaring off- Mm-hmm ... into the heights of whatever it is you're exploring, fantasizing about, et cetera? These things need to be integrated. Oh, well, that's what climbing is. You know, these, these are, you know, it's- Yes ... it's, it's a intimate relationship with your climbing partner.

It's the problem-solving characteristics. It's the, it's the hubris to imagine the thing, and it's the [01:23:00] humility to, you know, that you need to approach the thing. Uh, a- and the, the, the physical characteristics to actually do the thing, and to continue doing the thing, and to survive the thing. And then I ended up, you know, when I stopped climbing and ended up with this gym, well, it's all the same shit.

It's- Mm ... okay, here's another industry where there is distinct separation between the physical and the psychological because y- for whatever reason. Is it simplifying? Is it because, you know, it's easier to market? Is it because, you know, we're all about appearance, and who gives a shit about what is actually under the hood?

Um, you know, yeah, look at all those, look at all this physical structure and, and musculature, and then- Mm ... yeah, you-

Travis Bader: Nothing

Mark Twight: underneath So do you... Nothing underneath, or you're the guy who beats his dog, you know? Like- Right ... like that's... And for the, the physical work to influence one's psychology and their character, that was the interesting part of the [01:24:00] whole training process to me.

And it didn't, and it wasn't necessarily, it wasn't overtly in the, in that world-

Travis Bader: Mm ...

Mark Twight: uh, I think before I started really carping on it. Um, and I th- and I think there was, um, yeah, there was a stronger, stronger effect on, on climbing and climbers- Mm ... of pursuing that thesis than there was in the fitness world.

But, uh, because the fitness-- But the fitness world is, it's all, you know, fear, shame, and marketing.

Travis Bader: Yeah.

Mark Twight: You know, and man, the, I don't- And

Travis Bader: it works.

Mark Twight: And it works.

Travis Bader: Yeah.

Mark Twight: Uh, so well.

Travis Bader: Mm-hmm. It's interesting that you talk about how your work would be looked at by younger generations, and they say the natural progression of a warrior as they get [01:25:00] older is to be a mentor and to be thinking about how they pass their knowledge on to others.

And it seems to me that that's a, um, uh, a very distinct part of what, uh, uh, you're thinking about here.

Mark Twight: Now.

Travis Bader: Now.

Mark Twight: I mean, I'll, you know, I'll be 65 years old pretty soon, so- Sure ... it's about the time to, to, to be... Or, or s- Uh, yeah. I, it's, you know, when early on in our conversation, you know, you mentioned something about the, the influence or the effect that I have had on, you know, different people and, and it's something I am aware of it, but it's also difficult to, uh-

I don't wanna say accept, but there is a... I, I am very conscious of the effect of praise and acknowledgement and that kind of thing on my ego [01:26:00] and, and how there is-- I believe there is good ego, and then there is the bad ego.

Travis Bader: Sure.

Mark Twight: Right? And, and I wanna keep working with the good one. And, and, and so I won't j- you know, was with a friend last night, and he, he, he had been out in the mountains with someone else, uh, who w- you know, it's a triangulation a little bit.

I, you know, it's a mutual, uh, friend. And he, and he said, "Man, your effect, the effect of the routes that you did and the writing that you did about, you know, your climbing career on that guy, uh, is really, really powerful. And he probably would never say it to you, but, you know, he mapped his journey. You know, he said that he read that book.

You know, he read Kiss or Kill and-

Travis Bader: Mm-hmm ...

Mark Twight: and now he's a mountain professional."

Travis Bader: Mm-hmm.

Mark Twight: You know, however many years later. And it's, you know, similar with, um, with Travis, uh, Blair's husband, um, who, [01:27:00] you know, got into climbing, read Kiss or Kill, and that was it. You know, he read Twitch and, you know, he just went all in on that.

And that-- And some of it is, you know, the thing that I-- to me that was one of the most powerful statements about the writing, it wasn't, you know, it's not like a, a, you know, "This is how you do these things." You know? It was not a how-to thing. It's sort of how these... I did some stuff that affected me in this way.

Travis Bader: Just how you felt and-

Mark Twight: And I felt these things, and I was able to write them and maybe communicate them in, in, you know, in enough of a, a, a way to affect people. And, um, and Blair at one point said, "You know, when Travis read that book, it made him, it made him realize that he was not alone with what he was thinking- Hmm

and feeling in relationship to this activity." And that's... Since saying that, uh- I guess, uh, in that moment, and [01:28:00] it's pr- yeah. So it's seven and a half years ago now, or, or maybe it's, yeah, it's seven, I guess. See, 'cause she and I met, you know, very close on the, it was, what, oh, I guess seven, you know, two months after the accident.

And, uh, and she had told me then, and this idea of not feeling alone because we have seen, read, heard of somebody else's example, um, has come up a c- couple of different times. And to me, that, okay, this, it's important to keep communicating. It's important to keep exploring and to explore different ideas. I could keep writing about climbing, but I don't really do it, you know, uh, now.

And so it's not informing me in the way that it did. You know, if I'm working on, you know, writing now and trying to, you know- Describe[01:29:00]

Life after this amount of mileage.

Travis Bader: Mm.

Mark Twight: Life and these experiences. How did, how was, you know, okay, I was in the mountains, and the mountains were everything, and then I came down. How did... Man, it sucks down here in the valley sometimes, you know? But- But the- But I need to find beauty here. I need to find w- um, what is, you know, the, the same marrow inside the bones down here that I had in the mountains.

I need to understand what the quality of the relationships, what qualities in relationships developed in the mountains Are shared here because we're all human beings. Mm. So, uh, I think- Are you finding it? I, you know, when I, when I made Refuge, the, uh, sort of book about coming down, I thought I had. [01:30:00] And, and I, you know, i- in the...

And, and then I made the book and, and talked about it and lived it and shared it with people. And over the course of a little bit of time realized like, "Ah, no, I haven't." You know, I'm trying to con- I'm trying real hard to convince myself that I had.

Travis Bader: Right. Right.

Mark Twight: But it's gonna take more time, and it's going to take the, uh...

And what I r- what I learned it would take was the right person.

Travis Bader: In what respect?

Mark Twight: Uh-

Travis Bader: That's interesting.

Mark Twight: In this, um... It was... And I've, they say that right person is Blair. And she, um, accepted s- s- you know, saw, accepted, understands, gave me all of the latitude to be me without trying to change me. And I would say virtually every other relationship, [01:31:00] um...

And, and it could be with a calming partner. You know, there was, there was, um... You know, my, my partnership with Scott is, you know, I mean, he and... We still see each other. Uh, we texted yesterday. I flew out to Minneapolis and saw him in April. Um, you know, we s- or s- and it's the same thing. You know, we w- he and I complemented each other in a way, um, that made the, the partnership incredibly powerful because we are different people.

We are, but not at cross purposes, right? Mm. I amplified his good characteristics, and he amplified mine, and it's very similar with Blair in the sense of, uh, sh- she's not-- She doesn't know what's best for me. She knows me, and she accepts me, and she's not trying to make me s- you know, like anyone different than I am.

She'll nudge. [01:32:00] She'll steer. She'll-- She's, you know, we've, uh- Sh- she has steered me towards some of the most powerful moments of self-reflection in my life, of how I, you know, how I behave, how I conduct myself, how I've communicated in the past, how, um, you know, a small criticism becomes like World War 12, um, because of my defensive...

All of the relationships that I had in the past that, you know, where I felt it was, you know, if it was you won't amount to much, you know, you can't do this, this is wrong, you n- you know, all of these things, and me either justifying, proving, or defending my position, and that developing into habit.

Travis Bader: Hmm.

Mark Twight: And then that habit being applied to relationships that did not merit that response.

And to arrive, I mean, uh, my joke was, uh, you know, about our, our relationship, I said it took me 59 years to be ready for her. And what- Yeah ... she would, [01:33:00] um-

Travis Bader: Yeah,

Mark Twight: that's a good point ... allow me to see in myself, what she would liberate in, within me, um, and you know, 100% she's, she is absolutely, you know, I don't want to say the reason, but the, you know, 98% of the reason to stop drinking is I want more time.

Travis Bader: Yeah.

Mark Twight: I want a clear relationship. I want everything that passes between us to n- to be unadulterated by a substance I don't wanna be a different person than I am. And she's like, "You..." And at some point, you know, I'm still drinking, she goes, "You never get to drink red wine again around me." Alcohol's a

Travis Bader: thief.

Mark Twight: Dude, you become... Yes.

Travis Bader: It steals your patience. Yeah. Steals your time.

Mark Twight: Yeah.

Travis Bader: Yeah. Do you know what's best for you?

Mark Twight: No.

Travis Bader: Yeah. That was interesting.

Mark Twight: And, and this is, uh... A- and so, you know, some, I look back at some relationships where, you know, oh, I'm, I... If I could just get this [01:34:00] guy, this guy who's so passionate about this thing to aim his passion at me, you know, sorry, it's not gonna happen.

If I could just, you know, get him to settle down and harness that energy, then wow, we would be in a power couple, and it would be amazing.

Travis Bader: Doesn't work that way. It's

Mark Twight: not gonna be the thing. I'm sorry. And if, and, and so I look back, and I'm like, you... If I don't know what's best for me-

Travis Bader: Mm-hmm ...

Mark Twight: if I am still navigating my way towards that, you know, yes, I have this North Star as a guide, generally, with the ideals that I have and what I think is important.

Um, but I don't know what, you know, what do you... What is the what? You know, what are we talking about here? You know?

Travis Bader: What, what is the North Star?

Mark Twight: Um, this has th- it is, it, it is not Polaris in the sense, in the sense that it cannot be described as one word, you know? Yeah. It doesn't have a... You know, let's, we give it a name, but it is, um, it is, you know, [01:35:00] I'd, I don't want to...

There's a lot of don'ts, and there's some dos. Um- Sometimes

Travis Bader: the easiest way to define what you like is to find what you don't like,

Mark Twight: right? Yeah. I mean, well, it's a... I don't know if it is, but it is the habitual way.

Travis Bader: Okay.

Mark Twight: Uh, and,

Travis Bader: and y- Yeah. It, it- It, it seems to be, yes ...

Mark Twight: and, and, and I mean, for sure it's easier because we tried the thing, and then we don't like it, and then we're, you know, our- Yeah

okay, not that, not that, not that. And then we, we were never, like, consciously aiming for the yes, that.

Travis Bader: Right. But you can figure it out through process of elimination.

Mark Twight: But we're just... Exactly. And then it, then it's almost like a consequence. Right. And so I think it's really hard to say, "I want that As opposed to, I don't want that, I don't want that, you know, not, uh, not this, not this, not this.

But it's also essential to s- to understand, like, what is, um, what is my responsibility and what is not my responsibility- Right ... you know, in, in terms of, i- i- in, in relation to a lot of things. [01:36:00] But the n- but the North Star... You know, settling for less is a not want. Right,

Travis Bader: right.

Mark Twight: You know? You know, and, and repeating myself without, uh, growth coming from that-

Travis Bader: Mm

Mark Twight: is a not want. So, so I wanna do... And it's not just I wanna do new things because of the novelty of them. I wanna do the things. Like, it's been really important for me to... You know, I used to, uh, uh, like, it was absolutely important for me to write the Sunday sermons because it meant, like, I had to put my ass in the chair at some point.

That I couldn't wait for You know, the muse to show up- Mm ... and, like- Mm ... give me the gift of a brilliant thought or something. It's like, "Hey, it's Sunday night." And yeah, sometimes I didn't finish those, you know, some of them didn't get finished till 8:00 AM Monday morning. Some of them, you know, a little bit earlier, but some...

And some of them, you know, just happened like that. But it was... But having, having made that commitment [01:37:00] and then to follow through, and it was over 200 of those essays by the time it was all done.

Travis Bader: Holy crow.

Mark Twight: Um, and, you know, the first edition of Poison had 141 in it, and then the second edition, I think we got...

It got to 154 or s- something like that, 155. But i- you know, and I don't say there's 100 good ones, but that, uh... But having that and, and finding that discipline. Again, I won't ever impose, like, a on this day the thing comes out, because, um, I might... Yeah, if it has to come out on that day, like, I, I hated Sundays after a while.

Yeah, I can see that. Just fucking hated it. Yeah. And, um, but having the discipline to s- like, set my ass down in the chair and work.

Travis Bader: Hmm.

Mark Twight: Like, I need to, I need to write, even if it's taking notes, if it's ex- or if I'm reading something and I'm writing, um-

Travis Bader: Is it the routine? Do you find comfort in the routine?

Mark Twight: No, because it's not routine. Oh,

Travis Bader: okay.

Mark Twight: Uh, the... I mean, the only routine is that I get in there with coffee in the morning. Right. Right? And, and so, uh, but what [01:38:00] happens after that is rarely routine. It might be, you know, something happened recently. I've been working on a bun- And this is, you know, uh, this might be out by the time this podcast comes out.

Who knows? Um, uh, but I've been working on some sociopolitical essays, because I think we are at a f- at, at a point where it is absolutely necessary for people to start speaking about certain things. Hmm. And, uh, and if, if there is going to be an influence, you know, if I'm thinking about influencing a younger generation of climbers, um, uh, or, or, uh, people in b- you know, just, just young men in general- Hmm

I'll say, and, and, and tangentially I include young women. But, uh, mostly, you know, I'm on a, I'm on the dude, the m- the male- Sure ... experience. So, uh, um, i- well, I want to them, I want to influence them in other ways, because I've had a certain n- number of experiences, and it's been, you know, uh, there have been these things in the mountains.

It's been with the film industry. It's been with the military. It's been, you know- Gotcha ... yeah, I lived [01:39:00] in, I was in Tel Aviv for four months on a job. I was in Bulgaria for six months. I've seen, you know, I've traveled to the Soviet Union. I've seen... I was in France for five years. I was in the UK for two years.

Like, I've seen the outcomes of all of these different ideas and political positions, and I think it's super important right now for people to be aware of those things and thinking about them.

Travis Bader: I agree.

Mark Twight: So I started down this road of like, okay, how did I get to... You know, how did I do these activities and arrive at social and political ideas that are different from, you know, the majority of the people who are in the military, from the majority of climbers

Travis Bader: Do they have to be different though?

Mark Twight: Um, it-

Travis Bader: Or, or does the approach have to be different?

Mark Twight: We are in a binary... Well, the ideas don't have to be different.

Travis Bader: Right.

Mark Twight: But we end... I, I feel like at, at this stage, and we have, um...

And, uh, and I'll just call it binary. There is, [01:40:00] there is a sense of in-group and out-group- Yep ... ness that happens, and in order to stay in the group, I have to j- adopt all of the, adopt the ideas of the group, even if they are inconsistent with mine, but I'm s- young, and I'm malleable, and I'm plastic- Hmm ... and I don't really have mine.

Um, you know, when I was... And, and one of the things I explored in one of these essays is like, yeah, when I was, you know, inside of punk rock, and I was in the pit, and I was thr- You know, I was like resistance LARPing is what I call it, because we're anti-authority. Um, y- but no, just, you know, a lot of them were not anti-authority.

They were anti-conservatism.

Travis Bader: Right.

Mark Twight: They were anti-moral majority. Right. They were, you know, it was like, 'cause it, you know, Reagan era. Yep. It's Thatcher, uh, on the c- you know, across the ocean. And, uh, and s- and so I didn't have my own ideas, so I adopted the ideas of the group.

Travis Bader: Hmm.

Mark Twight: Only to learn many years later that no, that actually isn't what I believe.

You know, I w- Because I was mistaking their anti-conservatism t- for anti-authoritarianism.

Travis Bader: Hmm.

Mark Twight: Or I [01:41:00] just believed what I wanted to believe. Sure. And, and, um, and, and so going down this, this, uh, road of exploring some of like, okay, how did these movements, what were the, what were the politics of punk? And, you know, if we, in the UK, people were saying, "Oh, yeah, they were against, you know, the austerity measures- Hmm

that were imposed by Margaret Thatcher." So I'm starting to read in, you know, or I d- I, I d- I haven't read a full biography of Marg- Margaret Thatcher, but in the last month, I did read a book about, um, her relationship d- with, or, you know, s- it's an interesting, came out in 2023. It's a book called "There Will Be Fire," and it's about, um, this guy, Patrick Magee, who was, like, one of the bomb makers for the IRA, and he's the guy who set the bomb in, in the Brighton Hotel- Mm-hmm

in the Grand Hotel in Brighton in 1984, um, on a timer set for when Thatcher and the c- conference of conservatives was going to be happening there. Really fucking wild. Hmm. But it, it sort of [01:42:00] describes that whole relationship and the p- a little bit of the social, uh, you know, circumstances at the time. So I get interested in these things, and I like, "Ah, shit."

But I also reali- but I also learned that, like, oh, well, the reason that Thatcher, you know, became f- you know, elected, uh, she was the first, the head of the party, and then she, I think, won three elections as prime minister- I, I think I read this, yeah ... and, like, sort of got out- ousted in the middle of her third term.

Hmm. Um, the, the re- is because labor fucked it up. Hmm. The left fucked it up ov- you know, since, you know, post-World War II- The- ... to the point where England had to, you know, get loans or loan guarantees- Also in this issue ... from the IMF, to this point where they were having, like, kind of rolling blackouts. They had to go down to a three- or four-day workweek because they couldn't afford to keep the fucking lights on.

And this is all this problem. She comes in, obviously, when there's profligate spending and inflation- Hmm ... and that kind of thing, you're gonna... And the unions have too much power. Well, then you're gonna have these austerity measures. [01:43:00] Sure. And yeah, a lot of the music was against what she did, but it was, but what she had to do, and her con- her conviction about what she believed and her purpose was ferocious.

Travis Bader: Mm-hmm.

Mark Twight: And, but, you know, that ended up, you know, resulted in sort of '84, '85, somewhere in that timeframe, where there was, you know, 26 un- percent unemployment, you know, in s- age group. Right. In a certain age group, uh, 16 to 30, I think it, I think is the, the number there. And so, yeah, some of these measures resulted in, you know-

Travis Bader: Displaced youth

Mark Twight: displaced youth and, and, like, no way out-

Travis Bader: Mm-hmm ...

Mark Twight: uh, ultimately for the good of the nation-

Travis Bader: Sure ...

Mark Twight: in a way. Uh, I think it was a little bit different here. Um, but, but s- but still this idea of, um, adopting the [01:44:00] political or socio- sociopolitical positions of the group that we're in- Mm ... well, if it's all, you know, if it's the climbers, well, yeah, well, they're, you know, the, all, you know, exploitation and har- and, and resource, uh, um, well, just exploitation of- Sure

uh, uh, you know, of, of public land or what, you know, whatever is associated with, you know, right of center or- Right ... you know, whatever. Um, and so then I gotta be over on this side, and I, I want solar panels and wind turbines everywhere- Yeah ... even though it's like a fool's errand, and we should all really be pushing for nuclear power- Mm

as we should have. Anyway. Yep. A- and, and but so the, the outdoor industry, you know, um, has a certain general political position.

Travis Bader: Yep.

Mark Twight: You know, you had, uh... A- and then if we l- if we go into people who y- you are in the outdoor space, well, gosh, well, right now is probably the first time where there is some overlap between blood and guts and, you know, the tr- and fern sniffers-

Travis Bader: Mm-hmm

Mark Twight: is the way I would [01:45:00] put it. Like the r- Of course ... because, you know, and, and part of that has, you know, has- Of course ... to do with the fact that technical clothing that came from the outdoor industry suddenly hit sort of the hunting and fishing crowd. Sure. And they realized like, "Oh, man," you know. And then those groups were united, like when, uh, there was a, a political issue in the, in the States, um, that where those groups united in opposition to, you know, certain political positions that Senator Mike Lee was, uh, involved in.

Uh, a- and, and that's, those are the kind of things we should be united about, which is conservation. Great. You know, and it's, it's been- 100%. A- and, uh, and so there's this overlap, but that wasn't, you know... Like, yes, the, the, the, the climbers and the people who were backpacking and, you know, through hiking and that kind of stuff, they were all over there on the left, and they hate, you know.

And then there's the, the right-leaning conservatives who are the ones who are, you know, hunting animals and eating meat, [01:46:00] God forbid. Yeah. And, and, and then we were like, "Well, yeah, the, but they're, um, paying, you know, a lot of taxes that go into land conservation." A lot more come from, you know, hunters and shooting sports and fishing and all of that.

I mean, the whole, uh, Pittman-Robertson, uh- That's right ... uh, uh, thing of what is it? 11% tax on all ammunition sales that are going into, you know- Conservation ... con- conservation. Yeah. Yeah, none of that shit comes from the outdoor industry.

Travis Bader: Yeah.

Mark Twight: There is the... Got so, so-

Travis Bader: And the hunters will point to that all the time.

Mark Twight: Oh, yeah.

Travis Bader: So you love the outdoors? Show us.

Mark Twight: Show us.

Travis Bader: Right.

Mark Twight: Yeah.

Travis Bader: It's, uh, it's good to have a voice in there that can offer a, uh, even if it's a similar perspective to what other people are putting out, but from a background that people will actually hear it. I mean, I can't tell you how many times people told me to do my best when I was growing up, right?

It, it, until I finally heard it in the right way from the right person, it's like, oh, yeah, if I'm gonna do something- I should do [01:47:00] it as hard as I can. Like, if I'm doing this course, I'm not doing it to pass.

Mark Twight: Yeah.

Travis Bader: I'm doing it to be the best. Yeah. Or at least try.

Mark Twight: Be the best that I can, you know, get the best out of myself.

Travis Bader: Right.

Mark Twight: And it's like I don't wanna be... You know, one of the things that was attractive to me about climbing in the beginning was, you know, trying to re- and I don't know if I was rejecting my competitive nature, but I was like, climbing is so cool because, you know, when the winner wins, they, they win not...

They don't win at someone else's expense.

Travis Bader: Mm.

Mark Twight: And then that didn't help me when I started racing my bike. Where the point is competition.

Travis Bader: Right.

Mark Twight: Right? Like a- and, uh-

Travis Bader: And you were paragliding too for a bit, weren't you?

Mark Twight: I was on the front end of that whole thing. Yeah. Um, there w- and yeah, there was not any competition.

The competition, you know, early days of paragliding, so my first paraglider flight would've been sometime in 1986 I think, yeah. And, uh, uh, [01:48:00] y- yeah, the, the competition was to see who, who lived. That was pretty much... Because it, it, it was, um-

Travis Bader: Sketchy.

Mark Twight: There was some pretty en- entertaining things happened. Yeah.

No doubt it. I mean, entertaining now, terrifying at, you know, at the time.

Travis Bader: Yeah.

Mark Twight: Uh, because nobody, nobody knew. You know? There wasn't, uh, you know, Varjo didn't exist. Nobody- Mm ... nobody was, nobody was studying micro meteorology. Mm. You know? Uh, you know, the climbers and all, a lot of the guys, you know, the guys who g- had really bad accidents or got killed flying paragliders in the Alps, were guys who were really good climbers who assumed they would be really good pilots.

Travis Bader: Mm. There's a lot to it. For...

Mark Twight: Oh, yeah.

Travis Bader: I, uh, wanted to go, um, skydiving. Okay. But I'm a big guy, and they said, "You're gonna have to go down into the States to do a tandem." Uh, or sorry, "If you wanna pull your own cord, you gotta go down to the States. Here in Canada, [01:49:00] you gotta do a tandem, and you're kind of a big guy.

I don't know if, uh, we can..." Like, I've seen them parachute tanks. Yeah. I don't know what they're saying here, but- Yep. But anyways. That's true. Um, so I thought, "Well, okay. I'll, I'll pick up a paraglider." Yeah. "I'll teach myself how to paraglide." And my kids are like, "Dad, I don't wanna see you being the fastest person going down.

Can you, can you get some instruction?" So I started getting some instruction on them. Like, holy crow, this is... I just wanna fly. I just wanna take this thing out and fly around. I didn't realize there was so much to it, so. But I'd done a few flights on a thing, but, uh, it, and it we're light years ahead of where it was in the early days when- Yeah

when you were out doing it.

Mark Twight: It's, uh, see- It's, it, it's w- it is w- you know, who you just look at someone like Will Gadd or Bill Belcourt, um, you know, guys who ca- you know, came from climbing, adopted paragliding, and then, you know, applied that same thing. Mm. And, you know, there, there was a point, and this isn't even now, I'm not sure what's going on now, but you'd launch from [01:50:00] Snowbird and get as far as you could into Wyoming.

Travis Bader: Mm. Yeah.

Mark Twight: And, uh- Cross-country ... it, d- and the, the cross-country flights that are possible- It's crazy ... yeah. It's, it's, it is truly remarkable.

Travis Bader: It

Mark Twight: is. It is something... And, and to have been, you know, to have imagined Uh, when John Bouchard saw the first paragliders in the Alps, came back to the States, and then, uh, started studying, you know, these aeronautics books.

Travis Bader: Mm.

Mark Twight: And realized... I mean, he, I believe he made the first elliptical wing paraglider, which means the wingtips are flying because they're, uh, shorter. They're flying faster than the center.

Travis Bader: Mm.

Mark Twight: So the th- it would turn faster. Interesting. It would be more man- maneuverable. But y- y, um, but he brought it back, and he thought, "Oh, this'll be a great way to get down off mountains."

And y- yes, it will be, but not- ... until sometime in the 2000s.

Travis Bader: Mm.

Mark Twight: You know, but in the mid-'80s, you know, this is the [01:51:00] vision of what, uh, of, of what it would, what it could be. But the tech- the, you know, the experience level and the technology, you know, the, the wing technology didn't exist. He made- Right ... really light ones.

You know, had a, um, a two kilo, so four, four-and-a-half-pound paraglider. Seven cell. Had a glide ratio, a three-to-one glide ratio, so it flew like a stick. Mm-hmm. Not like a rock, you know, which would kind of fall straight- ... but it would kind of fall with... And, uh, man, I c- I think I c... I don't remember the total number.

It was something like carried it on, you know, I'll say five routes in the Alps, flew once.

Travis Bader: Okay.

Mark Twight: And then- '

Travis Bader: Cause conditions weren't good enough, or he couldn't-

Mark Twight: Yeah.

Travis Bader: Okay.

Mark Twight: Yeah. And but then if you... Okay, so you're carrying this extra weight on the off chance that you can get down with it, but then do you still have to carry the other weight-

Travis Bader: Mm

Mark Twight: to get to, you know, do you still have to have a rope? Do you still have to have, you know, all the anchors to rappel down? Or, you know, you still have to have enough f- if you gotta walk, you know, God forbid, you know, descend on foot, you would have to have enough supplies to- Out on [01:52:00] 12. Yeah ... to sustain that.

Um, it just didn't make, yeah, it didn't make sense in that moment. Yeah. Um, despite, like, the aspirations and the wild hunger for it to get-

Travis Bader: Oh, it sounds amazing.

Mark Twight: Yeah.

Travis Bader: The idea behind it's amazing, right?

Mark Twight: Yeah. And now it's done. I mean, you know, Benjamin Védrine, he flew off the top of K2. You know, he climbed, he...

So he, this is a couple years ago now. He-- So Benoît Chameau had set the speed record on K2 of, like, 23 hours, something like that. And, uh, and that was in 1985, I believe, '85 or '86. And that record stood for a really long time. And then Benjamin, he climbed it in 11 hours, uh, no oxygen, uh, it's, uh, et cetera, and then flew off the top with a paraglider, which, uh, brings a whole host of other interesting psychological issues with it, you know, reentering n- normal life.

Um, but then there was, uh, [01:53:00] then- Now I can't remember. But then there was, uh, uh, I wanna say, is it Inez? Um, d- when they flew tandem off the top of K2.

Travis Bader: Wow.

Mark Twight: And you're just like, "Okay, so now it's getting..." You know, yeah, it has to be ab- You know, the conditions still need to be-

Travis Bader: Sure ...

Mark Twight: right. There was an incident, you know, in the late '80s in, uh, on Aconcagua, um, in, in Argentina, where a guy launched a paraglider off the summit and went up.

Travis Bader: Yeah.

Mark Twight: And stayed up for a- Up and up and up ... for, for a long fucking time. Go

Travis Bader: hypoxic up there and-

Mark Twight: Yeah. 'Cause it launched from s- what, 23,000 feet, some- some thousand meters, something like that. And, and, uh, um, and then because of dominant winds, you know, off the south- Yeah ... it just... And he went up and up and, and, um, you know, and people i- in other various situations have gone up and frozen to death- Yeah

or, you know, gone hypoxic and, um, come down.

Travis Bader: Yeah.

Mark Twight: Uh, [01:54:00] uh, yeah. N- n- not in control.

Travis Bader: No. Well, so as, as I look at your youth and a lot of the... Like, I think you're around 23 when you're really pushing all out, if that's, uh, if, if I'm recalling about- Yeah, 22,

Mark Twight: 23 was... That was good, good couple years. Uh, '84, um, it was my first trip to the Alps.

'85, I spent four months there. And then '86, my first trip to the, uh, first Himalayan expedition.

Travis Bader: And you seemed like you were using anger as a way to fuel yourself. Would that be fair?

Mark Twight: I don't know what you're talking about.

Yeah. I, I... There was, um-

Yes, anger and, and, and also a, a, a desire to, um-

Travis Bader: Be seen?

Mark Twight: For sure.

Travis Bader: Mm.

Mark Twight: [01:55:00] Uh, uh, but to first go my own, uh, you know, live it on my, do it on my own terms, go my own way, if you will. Okay. Of, because it's, a- and of, you know, I, I look, I wasn't as subj- I had more freedom to do what I wanted to do, uh, than other people that, you know, had in, you know, let's just say.

You know, I'm like, I, I wasn't, you know, handcuffed into a recipe. Yeah. However, middle class upbringing, certain circumstances, very academic parents, expectations, uh, from both, uh- Strata of education that I was in, the economic strata, the, you know, sort of flow of circumstances, their political beliefs, you know- Mm

that kind of thing. You know, there's a, there's a w- a way mapped out, um, th- that I didn't want to follow.

Travis Bader: Mm.

Mark Twight: [01:56:00] And so some of it, you know, there's some like teen rebellion, of course. Um, but, uh, you know, that, that, that, that kind of continued. My, my quest for, you know, p- personal autonomy was a really important thing.

Of, uh, of not, you know, if, if my father, you know, was convinced that I wouldn't be su- you know, there was no way to be successful as a climber, you know, there's a lot of, "I'll show you," that goes, you know, that goes into a response to that. You know- Mm ... the prove it part. The, um... And, you know, the, uh, this is t- 12 years ago now, uh, I, one of my friends, she's a witch, um, she gave me one of the best pieces of knowledge, you know, is that I was estranged from both of my parents for a, a long time.

Um, and, uh, she was trying to help me sort of, you know, understand this [01:57:00] relationship, you know, with my parents, and she said, "Well, what do you, you know, what is it about yourself that you sort of enjoy? Like, like what do you appreciate? What do you respect the most about yourself?" And, and I came, and my answer at that time was like, uh, my, uh, the fact that, uh, I'm kind of a rebel, and I have been that way for a long time.

I've sustained it. It wasn't a, you know, I'm gonna fight against this and I'm gonna- Mm ... like looking for targets for my entire, my entire life. And she, and she urged me to be grateful for that, and to thank my parents for that. Like, "What the fuck are you talking about?" And she said, "You should thank them for giving you something to rebel against, 'cause that's how you learned."

Travis Bader: Isn't it funny how that perspective shift?

Mark Twight: Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. And I've carried it, you know, again, it's one of those, [01:58:00] okay, the lesson arrived at this moment. I was, you know, in this space with this person at this time of day. Like, it's very clear- Mm ... still, to have that offered to me, that I get to sort of live with, you know, for...

It can't, it's, it's a bell that cannot be unrung.

Travis Bader: Did that help reconcile-

Mark Twight: A bit, yeah. Yeah. And, but it also helped, you know, me, I, you know, see my own place in the world. You know, and, and, um- A- and I've, uh

I do... I wanna, again, kind of circle back to the, um, the leaving th- you know, doing things and then leaving them. Mm-hmm. And some of it, you know, li- like, so climbing was because the next st-step, I wasn't gonna take it, you know? And I still-

Travis Bader: It's like cliff jumping. Okay, I get to this level, then I- [01:59:00] then what? At what point do I stop going higher?

Mark Twight: It... Yeah, exactly. At what, at what point is it irrelevant?

Travis Bader: Right.

Mark Twight: You know, is, is, is the, the height of it ir- irrelevant- Hmm ... in, uh, or, or something? Or, um, what will, you know, what will jumping from 20 feet higher teach me?

Travis Bader: Hmm.

Mark Twight: You know? What... Am I learning something in the process going up to... You know? No, I need to do these unknown things.

I need to f- uh, find, by intention or accident, avenues to use what I've already learned and apply it to other ac- other activities. When I started shooting, yeah, I know how to learn. I know the importance of finding good mentor- You know, as a climber, I, uh, you know, I had John Krakauer, John Bouchard, and Jeff Lowe would be the three guys that I, you know, consider my main mentors as a climber.

Shooting, I was, you know... I accidentally found the best mentors I could have had. Uh, but I still found them. I still thank them. I still don't wanna let them [02:00:00] down- Mm-hmm ... you know, whenever I do their thing. Um, and, uh, a-and so, and I, and I think that's really important. And to, to find the th- the, the thing, the new thing, or to which I can apply lessons I've already learned that happen to be universal And when I started the gym, it was, you know, an accident of a guy, uh, had come to a talk I gave at Neptune Mountaineering in Boulder that-- and this would have been 2003, and, uh, said, "Hey, you know, you're kind of-- uh, I know that you're really into fitness, and I just did this, some seminar with this guy, and he's looking for people who are experts in their own field to, you know, kind of d- uh, validate or what, you know, verify his philosophy about this stuff and then carry it back to those communities."

And, uh, and so, uh, he said, "This is, this is, uh, this is his [02:01:00] name. His name's Greg Glassman. He's got this thing he's doing called CrossFit, and, uh, they've-- he's got this small gym down in Santa Cruz, and, uh, here's his email." So I sent him an email, and then we have a phone call, and he goes, "I got a thing. I got a s- seminar this, you know, Nov- early November or something, and, um, I'll comp you, you know, if you wanna come down."

So I drove down, and I did it, and I was like, "Okay, this is, this is interesting. This is a..." And because I had been involved in physical training, I'd had coaches, you know, guys that I was in the 19-- I think 90- 95 was my first formal coach for physical fitness 'cause I realized, like, this is, for what I want to do in the mountains, this is an important thing.

Travis Bader: Sure.

Mark Twight: And I don't-- Because I don't understand the, necessarily the physical demands of what I want to do, I need to ask someone who does.

Travis Bader: Sure.

Mark Twight: And I need to learn these things, and I need to g- um, part of the whole thing in the mountains is [02:02:00] really to control what can be controlled, and fitness is one of those things.

Travis Bader: Sure.

Mark Twight: Um, and, and s- so then I was down the fitness road. Plus 2003 is at a time I'm a bit lost. I'd stopped hard climbing, you know, after the Slobak, which is 2000, trying to find the thing to fill the hole, which cannot be f- you know, and the hole, there's no, there's no filling it. There's, there are other paths in life one might take, but there is no...

That void is immense.

Travis Bader: Mm.

Mark Twight: And, uh, and so then it started, you know, uh, then Jim Jones became a thing eventually within a pretty short timeframe. And, um- It, it, a- and there, and there it was. I'm just, you know, here are some universal lessons from climbing of, um, okay, I need to create... One of the [02:03:00] things that I think instills top performance in climbing is the consequence of failing.

Travis Bader: Sure, yeah.

Mark Twight: Okay, well, I can't, you know, make people jump off the roof of the building if they fail in the gym or whatever, but I can, but I, I can create expectations of higher performance. I can create social circumstances that will motivate people to... And this is one of the things that, you know, Glassman, Greg Glassman, he gamified fitness.

Travis Bader: Mm.

Mark Twight: Right? And, and you mean, he turned training into, uh, an informal competition based on the statement that men will die for points.

Travis Bader: Right.

Mark Twight: And combine, uh, c- combine a couple of things there, and then suddenly I have this, you know, this gym space where, man, something might fall on you in here, and you might fall on something, and there's, you kn- you know, and if you're, if you think you can do 10 laps up and down the backer ladder, and you can only do seven, well, I hope you, I hope you get off down low.

But if you don't-

Travis Bader: Yeah ...

Mark Twight: [02:04:00] cool.

Travis Bader: Yeah.

Mark Twight: Um, and so we set up, uh, a- and it was interesting because climbers got it right away. The first guys that I started training, they were climbers, and they understood, like, um, oh, fitness means something because it has a direct impact on my ambition as a climber- And he would-

on my performance as a climber.

Travis Bader: And he wouldn't just take anybody in. I mean, th- th- that, like, that was part of the marketing process, too. Like, whether that was on purpose or not, that's gotta be something that's just like, "I can't have it. I want it."

Mark Twight: Yeah. Uh, I mean, it, um, yeah, the, the, early on it was climbers and fighters.

Travis Bader: Mm.

Mark Twight: Guys who were either competing in Brazilian jujitsu or MMA, and, you know, 'cause you, man, you gas out, you get knocked out. Yeah. So there's a consequence to being unfit, and I thought that was pretty cool. Here's someone who's laying their fitness on the line- See, he's got the, he, he can't ... in some way. Uh, but, and early on- I think it's only nine

I was just like, "Well, I'm donating my time to this. Like, I w- I wanna do [02:05:00] this thing because I wanna learn. I need guinea pigs. I need people to experiment on because I have some ideas from Greg. I have ideas that came from Steve Illg. I have ideas that came from Ben Tabachnick, who was a Russian strength coach that ended up in the United States that a friend of mine, uh, Jeff Wagon had worked, done a bunch of work with.

So these ideas, and I wanna test them on people. I need a space. I need people who are willing."

Travis Bader: Mm.

Mark Twight: And, uh, I also need to them to be able to coexist together and to make each other better. Like, it, the, the, the-

Travis Bader: Right ...

Mark Twight: something needs to happen there socially. Like, you can't someone, have someone who is interested purely in aesthetics training with someone who's trying not to get knocked out-

Travis Bader: Mm

Mark Twight: and have it be a, a, a sum greater than the, the parts Um, and Lisa was really good at that, at, at identifying people. Uh, l- especially later [02:06:00] when the gym became an actual thing, when it was just my, like my private, you know, little weird back room- ... in, you know, a space that used to be a bread bakery that, you know, where w- half the equipment that was in there was shit that we made.

Uh, like- Awesome ... that was kind of, you know, the start of it.

Travis Bader: And there's an appeal to that.

Mark Twight: And there's absolutely an appeal to that. And people would come in and they would see a deity of some sort, uh, you know, sometime, and they were like, "Oh, my God." And we were pretty convinced that if it hurt, it was working.

Travis Bader: Right.

Mark Twight: Which is not true.

Travis Bader: No.

Mark Twight: But it's also, um, it, it also got people motivated. The consequences got people motivated. The competition aspect of it got people motivated in the way that, in a way that they might not be otherwise. And, and that was really fascinating. So in the beginning, you know, and then Fight Club had come out, uh, you know, just sort of around that time, and, um, a- and, and I was like- I'm sure that

Travis Bader: [02:07:00] helped

Mark Twight: I, I mean, uh, uh, yeah, especially when we started. You know, people walk in, and the whole sort of text, you know, at the very beginning of Fight Club was on this gigantic-

Travis Bader: Hmm ...

Mark Twight: sort of, uh, framed poster on the wall. It's still in, uh, what is c- called Gym Jones today. That thing is still there. Um, and but it was, uh, you know, invitation only, and you're probably gonna have to stand on the porch.

Right? And, you know, it wasn't like two players, b- two pair, pairs of black pants, three black T-shirts, you know- Right, right, right, right ... short hair, certain look. No, it wasn't that, but it was... You know, I made people petition. I made pe- you know, and, and because if, if, if it w- it was invite only and it was free, I could kick them out for not hitting the standards that I'd communicated accurately or not, you know, whenever I wanted to.

Sure. You know, it wasn't, there was no con- g- contract membership. There was like, everybody was there on parole. Um, and I was learning, and- You're

Travis Bader: too old, fat man.

Mark Twight: Yeah, yeah. Yeah, [02:08:00] exactly. His name is Robert Paulson. That's right. I mean, it's... Um-

Travis Bader: That was actually our chief of police, uh, RCMP. His name was Robert Paulson.

Mark Twight: He, the, the, I, I know a gentleman, I think he lives in Michigan. He's, he came out for a couple of seminars of the nonprofit business, and, uh, or maybe one Gym Jones and a later one. And I was like, "Seriously?" He goes, "Yeah." And, and it's like, I can't... You know, that's my name. And I just, and-

Travis Bader: Had to wake him up on a, uh, Sunday night, uh, years back when, uh, the RCMP were, uh, writing a check for me.

But that's maybe a story for another podcast. Yeah. And they said, they said, "Well, this has gotta go up to Robert Paulson." And I said, "I'm sure he's got a cellular pager."

Mark Twight: Yeah. "

Travis Bader: You can call him." Anyways. Yeah. That's, uh, that's a story I haven't told on here before, but, uh, may- maybe at a f- future time.

Mark Twight: Perfect.

Travis Bader: I,

Mark Twight: I, uh, uh, and yeah, so it was invitation only.

And then, uh, uh, but then there was a point, uh... So I was doing that. We were, like, making these little [02:09:00] videos and posting the workouts on the On the internet and, uh, and I had this guy John Green build our website, and he's like, "Well, do you wanna have a store attached to the website?" And I was like, "I'm never gonna sell, s- never gonna fucking sell anything."

Mm. I said, "No. No. This is im- you know, this is just we're broadcasting what we're doing."

Travis Bader: Interesting decisions.

Mark Twight: And, um, a- a- and, and it is, and I want you to, you know, everything needs to be black and white. Yep. It needs to, you know, there needs to... It has to be kiss or kill-

Travis Bader: Mm-hmm ...

Mark Twight: in, in some way. And it, and, uh, and it needs to be kinda hard to look at.

Mm. And so the font was of a certain size that, you know, every... And so I wanted people to want it. And then eventually when people realized that they really wanted it and they couldn't have it, you're absolutely right- ... scarcity, you know, breeds that sort of desire. Um, and then somewhere in there, you know, I'm doing the gym, but there's no money coming in from it.

I have another [02:10:00] climbing gear distribution business that I'm running out of the same space. And then, um, and I'd known Z- I'd worked with Zack, uh, Snyder on a s- bunch of different TV commercials. Um, sometimes it'd be mountain safet- you know, generally my job was mountain safety, you know? Yeah. So it was like, "Oh, we wanna fly a car to the top of a mesa in the desert and drive, and drive it around up there, and we wanna have a guy on a portaledge, you know, or something."

I'm like- Sure ... "Call Mark." Um, and so I, uh, I did a number of jobs with him, and he got, uh... He managed to get Warner Brothers to be interested in the "300" movie. And, and he said, "Look, I d- I don't wanna... You know, we don't have... A, we don't have a budget for CGI. We can't m- fake the guys. Look, we need to, we, we need to do this."

And he goes, "But I know that there's this guy, uh, that I happen to know him, and they're doing some really incredible things. You should see these guys-" Mm ... "the way they look, uh, they're coming out of this gym-" That's what you want ... "in Salt Lake [02:11:00] City." Yeah. And the, at some point, one of the producers was convinced that Zack had made the website and fabricated all the videos just to get the budget, to get them to sign off- Oh, that's

Travis Bader: awesome

Mark Twight: on someone training all these, all these guys.

Travis Bader: That's awesome. I was like- That's when you know you're doing something right.

Mark Twight: Yeah, exactly. I've... When he told me that story later, I l- I laughed pretty good. Uh, and I did that job, uh, a- and, um Came back, and then it takes a year for the movie to come out, you know?

We are, we, our last shot was, like, the tail end of January of 2006, and the movie came out in March of '07. And I'm still running the gym at that time, and so, you know, I'm running the climbing gear business into the ground. Uh, I'm doing some military work at that time also, developing a new, uh, assault climber's kit for the Marine Corps, or trying.

I got... You know, we got... We made the selection to two, the, down to the two final bidders, and- Hmm ... [02:12:00] uh, I knew more, but they had a better price, and- Gotcha ... the government has to go with the lower price.

Travis Bader: Gotcha.

Mark Twight: Uh, and so j- you know, cobbling a bunch of shit together- That's a tough one ... to... Oh, yeah. And- E-

Travis Bader: especially when they come in at a lower price and then later say, "Oh, we need more because we didn't account for."

Mark Twight: Yeah. And- Or they, they're really... Like, for all of the military training and that, that kind of work that we did, there's, you know, you've got the, the GSA number, and there's a, there's a, there is a Mirkwood forest to navigate with c- you know, c- government contracts. Hmm. Um, that, uh, m- it's really hard. And so, and this other supplier was really good at that part of it.

Sure. So the... You know, it was gonna... That was a part of it w- w- that we were gonna have to learn-

Travis Bader: Right ...

Mark Twight: um, y- you know, at the time. Anyway, so I had these things going on, and then the... I mean, if we had had a store and we had T-shirts for sale that looked [02:13:00] like they had abs on them or, you know, anything related to 300 when that movie came out- Hmm

I, I'd probably be a billionaire now.

Travis Bader: Hmm.

Mark Twight: Not, not a billion. I would earn some money.

Travis Bader: You, you would have some good money.

Mark Twight: We had- Got a

Travis Bader: couple stories

Mark Twight: like that, too ... we went from something like f- You know, 500 unique visits to the website, you know, per week or something like that. I mean, it wasn't very much.

I, I don't remember the exact number, but it, it basically, uh, crashed the servers. Uh, I mean, it was, uh, you know, last account it went... In, and basically the movie came out and we s- went up over 13,000, you know, a day visits to the website.

Travis Bader: Would you do things differently in hindsight?

Mark Twight: Pro- no, no. Hell no. Yeah. I, I mean, I could...

Well, uh, I couldn't do things differently who w- with who I was at the time.

Travis Bader: Okay.

Mark Twight: Like, if I could time travel-

Travis Bader: Sure ...

Mark Twight: now and go [02:14:00] back- If you go back now, sure ... I'd be like, "Oh, this is how you set this, you know, how you would set this up to, you know, tr- like, capitalize on these different ways of, of making money on work you already did."

Travis Bader: Right.

Mark Twight: Right. Uh, it, you know, that, that... You, but I can't, I, but I can't go back in time.

Travis Bader: Right.

Mark Twight: And in that moment, I mean, well, I was just like, "Dude, we need to do something here," to, to, to my web designer at the time, and, and he somehow cobbled a store onto the thing, and we s- you know, sold the thing. You know- Sure

some stuff, whatever. Um, which, I mean, mostly I barely remember. And then it got to the point where it was like, I don't, you know, T-shirts, yes, maybe we do that. We do T-shirts with clever phrases on them or something. But that shouldn't... But the p- what I want to sell is education.

Travis Bader: Mm.

Mark Twight: And my whole premise with that gym was, "Look, if you come here, you're, let's just say you're a blank slate, and you come here, you start training.

[02:15:00] If you haven't learned enough to coach, to train and coach yourself in a year and a half, then I have failed."

Travis Bader: Right.

Mark Twight: And my mission was to get people to, you know, kick people out of the nest.

Travis Bader: Mm.

Mark Twight: Like, I don't want you, a client, to be a client for five years, because that means I'm not doing my job. You're not getting...

You're not improving, you're not learning, so I'm failing.

Travis Bader: Mm.

Mark Twight: It's not a business model.

Travis Bader: Not unless you can then franchise and the person learn, they go out and they become a franchisee.

Mark Twight: And they, and so we tr- you know, tried doing that where we'd had like, okay, there's this educational program you can go, come, go through and become a certified instructor- Mm

and blah, you know, um, which was a bit the CrossFit model. Our education standards were higher. Sure. And, you know, we, you know, to become certified you had to do a month apprenticeship there or internship. Um, and that could be broken up. There was a, a whole series of things that I, that we established in order for me to be able to live with myself.[02:16:00]

Um, because at that time CrossFit was doing basically, like doing a weekend seminar and you'd have the certificate and you could, you know, open

Travis Bader: a garage, right? They still do that, aren't they? Probably. I think so. I don't know. Yeah,

Mark Twight: yeah.

Travis Bader: Um, I'm gonna, I'm curious, and I'm gonna go back a little bit on something that you were talking about.

There's two different things, and success I see I've written down three times here. Uh, which is an interesting one that we can talk on, but there's fear and rationalization.

Mark Twight: Okay.

Travis Bader: Okay. Is that something that you've, uh, battled with? The, um, uh, identifying am I afraid of this thing failing, or am I being smart for not pursuing it further?

Am I afraid of this thing succeeding, and so I'm gonna pull the plug, or am I being smart because I'm repeating the cycle and I don't wanna repeat myself? Or, I mean, and it can come from a physical side, let's say cliff jumping. Am I not going up any higher because I'm afraid and sure I could feel it, or am I not going higher because [02:17:00] I realize my odds of failure and injury are gra- drastically increased the

Mark Twight: higher I go?

And the, and the, and the type of injury I'm gonna get from 20 feet higher-

Travis Bader: Right ...

Mark Twight: maybe it's more significant. '

Travis Bader: Cause it's something that I think about too. When I get into something I'm like, "Hold on. Now am I afraid of what's going to happen and that's why I'm having this feeling of not doing it, or am I being smart?"

Right? Well- Is that something that you've, uh- V-

Mark Twight: not consciously.

Travis Bader: Okay.

Mark Twight: Um, there is, th- th- there is, I, I think a, a h- an aspect of human nature for some people, and I would say it's a n- it's a, it's a nurture, uh, consequence-

Travis Bader: Hmm ...

Mark Twight: of s- you know, family and social circumstances, let's say, where someone maybe believes they don't deserve to succeed.

Travis Bader: Mm-hmm.

Mark Twight: Um, which, a- and I don't know if that's something that's affected me or not [02:18:00] I'd... But it's not also something that I really think about. Am I afraid of this or am I like... Well, man, I mean, I can look at certain things. I, I got a fascinating email at some point in, I'll just say it's 2017, 2018, something like that.

From a guy who was a SEAL, was, uh, before, and he got out and, and, uh, just got involved a little bit in the fitness thing, and now he's doing some really wild training for people. Um, th- that, uh... And he, he, the subject line of the email, uh, Nick, you know who you are, um, was, "Why does Mark Twight always break off?"

Like, why do you do these- Hmm ... start, do these things and then stop doing them?

Travis Bader: Hmm.

Mark Twight: Which is essentially, uh, y- you know, th- this- Yes ... and, and, and it's, and, and I would say that no, it's not a fear of success. You know- Uh, it's- ... it's the, the climbing thing, I mean, it's a, it was- Was very deep ... that was irrational choice- Yes

because I couldn't give it what was necessary to achieve the logical [02:19:00] next objective.

Travis Bader: Hmm.

Mark Twight: Um, and then with the gym, uh, A, it stopped being satisfying when it became, the more commercial it became.

Travis Bader: Hmm.

Mark Twight: And, and part of that is, like, what, why is it n- you know, what does one have, how does one have to prostrate or prostitute themselves in this particular industry, the fitness business, in order to be successful?

Travis Bader: Hmm.

Mark Twight: Um, and suc- what does success mean? Oh, do I wanna get seen? Do I wanna make a bunch of money? Hmm. Do I wanna be the man and the thing, you know? And then every time, you know, it's like, "Oh, you're the 300 guy." I'm like, "Oh, for fuck's sake." Right. I, you know, "Oh, you're a Hollywood trainer." I'm like, "Whoa, whoa, whoa, those are fighting words," you know?

Like, in, in, in a sense because of the, um, like, A, I don't want, I don't like boxes because e- especially the ones that we put ourselves [02:20:00] in because they're self, you know, it's a limitation. Sure. I've just, I've just made my four walls, and there's already a floor, and now I'm gonna ma- I'm gonna make the ceiling.

Travis Bader: Yeah.

Mark Twight: Uh, y- you know, on, on this idea.

Travis Bader: And all I do is decorate it, and then redecorate it.

Mark Twight: Yeah. Yeah. And, and at one point with the gym, you know, I'm, like, negotiating with a guy. We're developing a plan to have a line of supplements because that's how you make money in the fitness industry. Sure. And I'm like, "Well, I want a line of...

What do you want to, you know, what..." He's like, "What do you wanna do with it?" And I go, "Well, it has to be defensible."

Travis Bader: Hmm.

Mark Twight: I have to be able to p- you know, prove the, the, the source of the raw materials, and there needs to be a reason for these products to exist, right? And so what are those? Well, we don't ne- I don't need to make you a stimulant.

There's fucking plenty of those out there, and mine's not gonna be any better. And I was at the factory where they are mixing this stuff up, you know, for some of these other suppliers, and I'm looking, like, 70 ingredients in this little powder that you pour into a thing that supposedly makes, well-

Travis Bader: You need somebody in between Mark [02:21:00] Twight and the, uh, someone, you need a hype man.

Mark Twight: Yeah. Yeah, and we got a hype man, and then the hype man, um, you know-

Travis Bader: Hyped themselves. Yeah. And then-

Mark Twight: Yeah ...

Travis Bader: yeah.

Mark Twight: Uh, and, uh, it s- so there, there was no way that I was just like, "No, these things have to be, they have to be serious And yeah, if I had the, you know, seven-minute ab supplement or whatever the, you know, four-minute-

Travis Bader: Four-minute abs.

Mark Twight: Yeah, you know, or whatever it is. It's abs in a bottle- Yeah ... you know? Or whatever, yeah, we would've still- I don't

Travis Bader: have abs yet. Just drink more.

Mark Twight: Yeah, exactly. You're not drinking enough. You know, you need to buy more- ... before you can drink more. And it, you know, if there's the, the, the promises, you know, and there were all kinds of people who were saying, you know, "These are the supplements that made the Spartans in 300."

And there were like people actually hijacking-

Travis Bader: Oh, yeah ...

Mark Twight: and- Everywhere ... ripping off the photos to say, "I know what they took," you know, and just like- Riding on your

Travis Bader: coattails.

Mark Twight: And, uh, I'm like, man, well, I couldn't look at myself in the [02:22:00] mirror, but obviously their character is completely different than mine.

Travis Bader: You're a creator. You like to create things.

Mark Twight: Yeah. And it would be, and it would be great if, you know, here's the thing, and you could move on with it, but then I'm also pretty fucking possessive. If I'm gonna make it- Yeah ... it's really hard for me to transfer it for any sum of money to someone else and then watch them ruin it.

Travis Bader: I can 100% see that. And they will. Yeah. Because they won't do it the same.

Mark Twight: Yeah.

Travis Bader: They might do some o- areas better or different- Yeah ... but it won't be the same.

Mark Twight: They'll mark it better.

Travis Bader: Sure.

Mark Twight: I mean, it, you know- ... at some point I was s- you know, uh, I mean, I just, I would call Jim Jones anti-marketing. You know, the website's hard to read, you know?

There's too much material there. There's no call to action. There's no easy way to, you know, buy the product that gets you the th- the aspirational thing, you know, or pretends to. There was, um, a- and it was, you know, "Hey, we wanna interview you for the fitness magazine." I'm like, "Go fuck yourself. I'm not interested."

Right. [02:23:00] "You're gonna, you're not gonna tell the truth, so why would we have a conversation?" Mm. And, uh, the number of interviews like that that I refused, you know, h- if I had accepted, then maybe there would be... You know, it, it could have become so- it would have become something different.

Travis Bader: You're kinda known for refusing things.

What's- What's the most you've walked away from?

Mark Twight: In, well

Travis Bader: And I'll leave that to you.

Mark Twight: Yeah. I, I mean, if I, if... The immediate answer would be, um, walking off the Aquaman movie.

Travis Bader: Hmm.

Mark Twight: Uh, which, you know, I'd done Wonder Woman and Justice League back to back. Yeah. And then, uh, and then because... And then Jason was doing, then he got his own franchise and he was doing the first Aquaman movie.

Travis Bader: Hmm.

Mark Twight: Being filmed in Australia. Uh, and but it wasn't Zack, you know? It was this different director, and so the ethos, everything was... It was way more [02:24:00] Hollywood- Mm ... than one of Zack's productions. Like, Zack would show up on these TV commercials that we're shooting with a gym, you know, or, or, or gym equipment in a truck so that he could, like- Perfect

take care of his own fitness. He would, you know, uh, on Justice League, he would... Every morning I would get to the gym at 6:00. He would arrive at s- And I would make coffee. He would arrive at 6:15, and he would work out with his trainer in the gym. I mean, he was in there- Wow ... every morning of work, you know?

And the guy's super dedicated, and that. And then he gets people who are on the product, you know, from the camera crew, from the photo department, you know, like all the, like, who are working out in the gym. He, he, from the top down, you know... And, and on 300 he was in the gym all the time, you know? And people, and, like, like, the stunt crew and the actors would come in and, 'cause he would get there first- Right

'cause he had to do it before work.

Travis Bader: He's the leader.

Mark Twight: And they would see his workout on the whiteboard. Mm. And holy shit, did that establish a really beautiful culture.

Travis Bader: Mm.

Mark Twight: And a culture of certain values where hard work produces results, that there is not an [02:25:00] end around to get to the result.

Travis Bader: Right.

Mark Twight: And then it's, and then you get into, like, the other...

And then, and Guy Ritchie was the same way, uh, worked on The Man from UNCLE with, um, Henry. And, uh, he's, you know, d- he would c-cut it every day. He goes, "We shoot 10-hour days. We don't break for lunch. B- And I stop at 5:00 because I got fucking jujitsu to do." And that was his imperative. Mm. And so he and his assistant, Ivan, you know, they would be training with kettlebells.

They would do, be rol- doing jujitsu p- practice and other conditioning stuff. And again, it's like, it's a culture that trickles down to the rest- Right ... of the crew, and it's really wonderful to see. The, the influence of physical effort And that consistency and commitment, the, the, the influence that that has on behavior outside of the gym, outs- off the mats, um, and, and the way that it affects people who wouldn't normally be susceptible to it, but if they're around it [02:26:00] every fucking day-

Travis Bader: Right

Mark Twight: and they can't avoid seeing it, they're like, "Man, maybe I should be in-"

Travis Bader: You're

Mark Twight: in it. You know, may- yeah. And so, uh, when the Aquaman thing started, I was kind of over it. Like, J- Wonder Woman and Justice League back to back were hard.

Travis Bader: Hmm.

Mark Twight: Really hard. And I was in a relationship with a woman that had been distanced- Yeah, it is

because I was, uh, you know, away, and then we were suddenly able to spend time together, and then I'd go to Australia to work on this job, and, you know, set up the gym, set up the circumstances and everything. And Jason really wanted me th- there. I mean, we're, we are good friends. And, um, and my assistant, Stuart, who was with me on Justice League, uh, I said to him, "I'm gonna need you down there also."

Um, and partway through, I was just like, "Man, the culture of this..." I re- I got to a point where I realized, like, I'm only here for the paycheck.

Travis Bader: Hmm.

Mark Twight: I'm not learning anything [02:27:00] here. There's-- We're not doing anything new. I don't love it here. Um-

Travis Bader: Yeah, I don't like that feeling ...

Mark Twight: on the Gold Coast of Australia. But mostly it was like, my motivation is the money, and I never wanted to be that guy, and I don't wanna be that guy right now.

And so I said, uh, "Stuart This is, this one's, this one's for you.

Travis Bader: Mm.

Mark Twight: And if, would you continue doing this? Um, and you can work with the guy that, that Jason has here to help him out, and, and, uh, these other actors. And, uh, I'm, I'm out. Mm. And that's a big thing to walk away from, you know? It's like I finally arrive at a point in the industry...

'Cause you, you know, you start a job and you get paid this much a week, and your per diem is this much, and your lodging allowance is this much. But then you're successful, and so the next job that, you know, you negotiated a- an increase, and the next job after that you negotiate another thing. Mm. And then you get to the point where it's like, it's [02:28:00] like it's an in- it's a stupid sum of money.

It's not... It's way more than w- y- more money than what

I was doing was worth. But it's also part of that-

Travis Bader: In your mind. Worth is gonna be worth whatever someone's gonna pay for

Mark Twight: it. Gonna pay, yeah. But- There, there, there is that, but then you start to see how, how the people that are motivated by money turn out.

Travis Bader: Yeah. Oh, I 100% agree with that.

Mark Twight: And you j- and you just realize, like, wow, if that is the point and that is the result-

Travis Bader: I want no part of that

Mark Twight: then it's n- then I cannot be here.

Travis Bader: Yeah.

Mark Twight: And one of the reasons that I was successful, um, in that business was because I'd be put in positions- Right ... and, and, and it's, it's not great power.

Travis Bader: Mm.

Mark Twight: But it is the p- it is... Uh, [02:29:00] I mean, one of, one of my favorite clients that I trained for Justice League was Amber Heard.

And, you know- Everybody has an, you know- Sure ... she's in the public eye- Yep ... and people have an opinion. But she was in the midst, at the time we were filming that, she was in the midst of the most horrible part of the divorce.

Travis Bader: Mm.

Mark Twight: And like the, you know, public s- you know, they're all, all this... You know, my job was to make my gym a sanctuary- Mm

for her. She comes in there, every, the rest of the world doesn't exist.

Travis Bader: Mm.

Mark Twight: We're gonna t- let's see, what's today, the 29th? Yep. 29th. So August 26th of 2016 was, uh, her, she did the first pushup she'd ever done in her entire life.

Travis Bader: Okay.

Mark Twight: Um, she went through this physical kind of transformation for that role, but mostly she could come in, [02:30:00] um, we got, we established a good rapport early on.

She saw all of these other Amazons that I'd been training for- Mm ... Wonder Woman and then for Justice League. She's like, "Oh my God, they look amazing. You know, I'd like to look like that." I'm like, "You can." Yeah. You know? This is just, this is what we need to do. Um, but this gym is safe. Nothing exists. Nothing you say in here will leave these walls.

Nothing you do in here will ever be, you know, recorded. Mm. I have never, you know, I have like a, a whole cat- you know, a photographic catalog of her progression, you know, in, you know, going from soft to, you know, harder and more- Yeah ... durable. So it'll never get out there in the world because, um, because it does, it's, th- those are my refer- you know, were my references- Edits your reputation

for future work, you know? Yeah. And they're, and it's not ex- exploitative in some way. And at the end of it, she just, she, you know, we had three month- at the end of those three months, she basically said, "Look, I, um..." And there's, this has happened with one, with her and one other person. She's like, "I think [02:31:00] you saved my life."

Travis Bader: Mm.

Mark Twight: Like, "You taught me how to navigate this using different sh- using non self-destructive means-

Travis Bader: Interesting ...

Mark Twight: which would have been my go-to."

Travis Bader: Interesting. Interesting coming from somebody who, from outward appearances at a young age, was taking self-destructive measures to manage himself.

Yeah.

Mark Twight: Yeah.

Travis Bader: And it seems like a it seems like a lot of the, um, um- Like there's a short-term gain, the...

So to speak, a short-term game to be played where, um, the alpine style, go fast, go hard, go light, can really pay dividends. And you write about, like, you, you gotta know when to turn around. If the weather's not good, you gotta know when you gotta go and move back. There's a long-term play as well, and a lot of people, I think, would look at the, um, [02:32:00] short-term in, in, in brackets, um, benefits of the extreme workouts, of the extreme, uh, physical and mental conditioning But there's also a long-term game that needs to be played that, uh, it looks, it sounds like you're, you're piecing in now, late- later in life.

Mark Twight: Well, there's, uh, and it, and this is a lesson learned from, you know, in a, in a way from the, from fitness, is like any condition arrived at quickly is unstable.

Travis Bader: Hmm.

Mark Twight: So yeah, we took, you know, uh, Andrew Plevin, who's a guy who was in, uh, he played Daxvos in 300, and he came back for the sequel.

Travis Bader: Good.

Mark Twight: And, uh, he's just like, "I wanna, I wanna have a fucking horrible experience."

You know, "I just wa- I wanna do..." Uh, and he's like, "I'm out of shape, I'm fat, I'm soft." Um, you know, "And I, and I wanna go through it. I wanna do what you do." And, you know, and he goes, "I got a shirt- I got two days of shirtless shooting-" Okay ... "basically for this thing. I have five weeks of training that I can do."[02:33:00]

And again, you know, 30 pounds, five weeks.

Travis Bader: Wow.

Mark Twight: But unsustainable.

Travis Bader: Right.

Mark Twight: Like there was, there was n- he looked good on the day. He did the work. I mean, the transformation of what happened- That's crazy ... with that guy. I mean, he was, like, legitimate. He was training twice a j- twice a day, legitimately, an hour and a half each session.

We had him on a really, you know, restricted diet. I've imposed intermittent fasting on him.

Travis Bader: Hmm.

Mark Twight: Um, so he would have, uh, 19 hours of fasting, and he'd have a five-hour feeding window, and the feeding window would start after the first work... You know, he'd go in to do his first workout of the day with no food, and then he'd get, his feeding window would open, and then for be- and, and it would close before the second workout- Hmm

out of the day. And, and it... W- what happened with him was absolutely remarkable, but there was no way to... But- Right ... but the habits hadn't changed. The th- the thinking processes hadn't changed. And so, oh, the short-term gain [02:34:00] is possible-

Travis Bader: Mm-hmm ...

Mark Twight: for a surface change. But if you want to establish something that is sustainable long term, um, or a, a- and, and, and learn how to do it for the entire rest of your life, well, that's gonna take some time.

Travis Bader: Right.

Mark Twight: And the, and the trajectory will necessarily be less steep. And this is... So, uh, for Man of Steel, training Henry, um, to, for the Superman role, uh, so the, the shoot was 122 days, which is basically six months. He has to look the same on the last day of shooting as he did on day one.

Travis Bader: Yeah, that's gonna be a lot more work.

Mark Twight: Right. So, so I was fortunate. I had five months to get him in shape. Hmm. So we arrived slowly at his condition, which is the only way we could maintain it for six months.

Travis Bader: Gotcha.

Mark Twight: And, and this is- This is, this is- ... this is a universal lesson in life. Like a y- if I learn- It is ... something from an AI-driven YouTube tutorial, [02:35:00] it is not knowledge that-

Travis Bader: Beware of knowledge-

Mark Twight: that, that I've earned

Travis Bader: Was that Nietzsche? And nothing in life ever comes, nothing worthwhile in life ever comes easy-

Mark Twight: Yeah ...

Travis Bader: is the other one. Mind you, I did have, uh, Ron Spoomer say, uh, "There have been some gifts," right?

Mark Twight: Yeah. Yeah. And, and, and we have to recognize them for what they are- Mm ... not, and not being, and not count on being able to replicate them.

Travis Bader: Right.

Mark Twight: And if you, if it ne- if it needs to be sustainable and replicable, well, there's a way to do it. There- And there is no shortcut, end around, you know, quick thing. And again- There- ... like I said, if it's a one, one or two-day shirtless scene that you need to be prepped for, fuck, who caves if, you know, yeah- Give me-

give me three weeks, I can do that. Yeah. You know, unless you're a total piece of shit and you won't do the work. But- Um, uh, uh, but if, if, if you w- you know, the, the f- the fact of, uh, you know, Vincent Regan sustaining it for years and to run into him afterwards and, you know, to have a, his gratitude for that, that, [02:36:00] you know, and that's the same way with climbing.

I could get good really fast, you know, and I, uh, one of the things I've said, and I think it's in Extreme Alpinism, is, is that I, I put 10 years' worth of climbing into two years. That did not mean that I had 10 years of experience.

Travis Bader: Right.

Mark Twight: I only had two.

Travis Bader: Yeah.

Mark Twight: Still, time matters Um, I wanna go back to the thing where I started down with the Amber Heard story.

So she's in a really susceptible condition.

Travis Bader: Sure.

Mark Twight: I could have exploited that. Yeah. I was in a position of power. Sure. I was not only, you know, the guy who ran the gym and I was the, the person who was, or telling her what to do, I was also being a bit of a father figure.

Travis Bader: Sure.

Mark Twight: And I had a number of women that I trained like that.

Yeah. And never had a problem. I had to fire a couple of different people who were, you know, exposing the, uh, studio to s- you know, potential s- sexual harassment charges. Because they could, they could not manage their relationship to being in a powerful position. You get these ex-

Travis Bader: A lot of people are like that.

Why is

Mark Twight: that? The, the majority of.

Travis Bader: Yeah, why is that?

Mark Twight: I, I [02:37:00] don't, I don't know. '

Travis Bader: Cause I, I've seen that, and having staff and people who are instructors in a position of authority. I had one guy, I said, "No, no, you gotta go." He's like, "No, no, no," and he's quoting all the laws and how he's, like, within the laws. I'm like, "Buddy, if you know the laws that well surrounding this, that's a problem," right?

Mark Twight: That... Yeah. Yeah. And, and it would, you know, I had some, uh, influential people when I was younger who y- you know, used their position to ad- to advantage. Sure. And not in a good way. And so I was like, man, I really- Around you. Pardon?

Travis Bader: Around you.

Mark Twight: Yeah.

Travis Bader: Yeah.

Mark Twight: Yeah. Okay. And I'm really cognizant. Like, I don't wanna be that...

I see that. That is not acceptable social behavior. Yeah. And it's, you know, b- I don't believe in, you know, moral e- equivalence. You, you know? Like, like I think there was, there are lines that can't, that should not be crossed. I agree. I've, I've crossed them, you know? Yeah, I've had, uh, uh, affairs while I was married at [02:38:00] some point, you know?

Right. And, you know, that's not something that I would ever do now. Yeah. I understand how, A, the consequences are, how much, you know, my own selfishness hurt other people. I was reckless with those- There's, there's- ... with other people's emotions. I- It's, it's- ... was careless, you know, as I- That's, I- ... sought to improve my own, you know, condition or h- have, you know, fun experiences, you know, whatever.

And, and, um, and- Wa-

Travis Bader: was it, was it just that, or was it also a, um- A realization that maybe you didn't want that other... You didn't want the relationship you're in, or may- may-

Mark Twight: Oh, for sure. Sure. You know, there, there, there could be something like that, like, "I'm not getting what I need from this relationship-" Sure

so I'm gonna do this." Well, then-

Travis Bader: Then

Mark Twight: break it ... stop- Right ... the relationship-

Travis Bader: That's right ...

Mark Twight: and start. Don't be- And, and also, you know, what is this, "I'm the full commitment guy. I'm the guy who, you know, will take the rope off and go-" Right "... on alone," you know? But oh, no, here, [02:39:00] you can't fucking decide what you want, you know?

Yeah. And you're, uh, you're being... This is dishonesty. What's kept me alive in the mountains-

Travis Bader: Is honesty ...

Mark Twight: 100% honesty, uh, regarding the, my condition, my ability, the situation I'm in.

Travis Bader: I think that's one thing that, uh, becomes very clear in your work when people look at it, is you are incredibly introspective and honest, like brutally self-aware and honest about yourself internally, or at least you try to.

You try.

Mark Twight: I, I try, I try to. And, and, you know, it's one thing that I've learned with Blair is she just said, "Look, I've never been around someone who's... you know, gets confronted with..." And I'll be general, you know, in a way, but, "C- you, you get confronted with something that you did that hurt me."

Travis Bader: Hmm. "

Mark Twight: And you spend time, uh, sort of assimilating that."

And then you change.

Travis Bader: Hmm.

Mark Twight: You are aware, [02:40:00] you can observe yourself, and then you're aware of what these consequences are, and then you will work on being a different, you know, being a different person.

Travis Bader: Yeah.

Mark Twight: And that to me is like, okay, this is, I'm down in the, I am in the valley and I have found-

Travis Bader: Awesome ...

Mark Twight: what I was looking for, what I thought I had found when I made Refuge.

Travis Bader: Yes.

Mark Twight: And, um, and but at that time I didn't... And even before Blair and I, you know, uh, were in a, developed a relationship with each other, um, I mean, even when we did, I still didn't know what I was looking for, but, um, but everyth- though this is feeling better. This is- Hmm ... this is like I'm feel my skin is fitting on me better.

Awesome. Something l- like that. And, uh, and, and th- this question of, of power, though, I, it's like why can't people handle it? I... And, and, or are they [02:41:00] encouraged to misuse it by s- by certain role models in society? Like, I don't underst- understand, like why would you do that? Here's a short-term gain. Yeah, you can, you can, uh, she's not a minor, so that's good, but you're in this position of authority.

That's it. This person really wants to make it in this industry. They might be, that person might be willing to do something. But- But you will never work in this business again if you do that. So w- is it worth it?

Travis Bader: I mean, that should just- Is it- That, that's like- Like- ... the logical no-brainer. The other one is how do you look at yourself in the mirror?

Oh, yeah. What kind, what kind of person do you wanna be? But you're... I, I don't know. I don't, I don't think most people spend the same amount of time looking at, um Looking at themselves introspectively and what kind of a person they are, where their flaws are, and where they can buttress them, where they can become stronger.

[02:42:00] Uh, I, I, I don't think that's a common trait. And, and maybe that's why when people get a whiff of power, whether it's real or perceived, a whiff of money, whether it's real or perceived, they all of a sudden start doing some real squirrely things.

Mark Twight: And it's, it, it is remarkable to see. Yeah. And it's like, wow, the...

'Cause it's a, um, in a conversation last night, do you know what I mean? I, I always have this idea about, yeah, people are not... We need more chess players.

Travis Bader: Mm.

Mark Twight: Someone, and, and I don't play chess well, but I understand the concept of looking multiple moves ahead.

Travis Bader: Right.

Mark Twight: And having enough experience in that game to pr- be able to somewhat predict my opponent's behavior.

Mm. So that the, so that the, the quality of my forethought is improved-

Travis Bader: Mm ...

Mark Twight: based on this experience. And I, I look at any, you know, any, uh, sort of- I mean, I could put, if you wanna put it in a political sense, you know, I'm like, "Well, you guys wanna vote in all the socialists?" [02:43:00] I mean, I think y'all need to look 10 to 20 years-

forward.

Travis Bader: Sure.

Mark Twight: And see what, see, try to understand what you'll be passing on to your children.

Travis Bader: The best predictor of future performance is past performance.

Mark Twight: Yeah.

Travis Bader: Take a look in the past, how did that work out? Take a look at the future, what's that gonna look like?

Mark Twight: Yeah. And I, I'm just like, I think that needs to be, needs to be thought about.

It's, it's, uh, uh, and, and, and okay, you can take the political thing. Another something that's, that happened recently where I'm, uh, let's see, a couple years ago, and there's a question about cutting switchbacks. Okay. You know, which is okay, the national parks, you know? Well, anywhere. Sure. It shouldn't happen.

Um, but if we, if we normalize it-

Travis Bader: Hmm

Mark Twight: Then what happens? If, if, if you aren't taking... You know, if you get caught doing it and you, a- and there isn't sort of a public visible punishment so that other people are like, "Whoa, I probably shouldn't do that. Why, why is that person being punished?" Oh, because if every, [02:44:00] you know, if more pe- if we normalize this behavior, then 10 years down the road, then this place, w- uh, we won't be able to move there on foot anymore.

Travis Bader: Right.

Mark Twight: You know? Or, uh, uh, we w- we'll, we'll just... And, and we'll start getting this idea in our head that shortcuts lead to the same destination, and then we'll start behaving in a way as if that's actually true, because it worked in these one or two cer- certain circumstances. And so we are conditioning future, our future behavior by our habits right now, without looking at what the long-term consequences could be.

Travis Bader: How you do anything is how you'll do everything, and that seems to be... Shortcuts seem to be something that really stick in your craw. Yeah. Whether that be shortcuts in fitness- Yeah ... shortcuts in, in alpinism- It- ... wh- whatever it might be.

Mark Twight: Yeah.

Travis Bader: You are-

Mark Twight: Because they don't, they're [02:45:00] not te... You know, if, if... For me, the im- the important thing is learning.

Mm. And it's shaping m- you know, use- using ac- my activity, whatever it is that I'm doing, to shape my own character.

Travis Bader: Mm.

Mark Twight: Right? And I know what happens if I consistently take shortcuts, um, i- i- is that I d- uh, uh, eventually I don't arrive at the same place that I would- Right ... otherwise. Right? And, and, uh-

Travis Bader: Physically you might.

Mentally you don't.

Mark Twight: Exactly. And physically I, you know, over and over again I get, okay, I get to the same place, get to the same place, but what would I have lear- you know, d- what are you... Am I just too weak to go the long way?

Travis Bader: Mm.

Mark Twight: Like, I think if I consider myself a relatively capable person, if I'm going this, the shortcut- Relatively, you know.

You know? Or sometime, you know. Not in all things, certainly. Sure. But, you know, but, but I'm just like, man, if I keep, if I keep shortcutting or short-changing or settling for less, doing less because I don't need to do more in order to get the same satisfaction or something- Mm ... then I, then what, uh, who am I in [02:46:00] 10 years?

Travis Bader: I've got a couple of things here that, uh, some friends have- Let's see ... put together. A couple of questions.

Mark Twight: Oh, boy.

Travis Bader: And what you were- Yeah ... just talking about there kind of, uh, uh, it kinda reminded me of one of the, uh, the questions. But, uh, Brad Brooks, he's from Idaho, and- Okay ... he's got a company called Argali, and they make, um, top g- top drawer hunting equipment.

Lightweight. He's a rock climber. Um, gets copies of your books for everybody he knows and sends them out, of Kiss or Kill. Yeah. Um, gr- great guy. You'd like him. Um, he says, "Do you think doing dangerous things is important for people to do, and if so, why?"

Mark Twight: I do. And, uh, uh, d- d- unequivocally, I think it's important.

How do you describe danger? Okay, that's a side conversation.

Travis Bader: Sure.

Mark Twight: Because again, if I could r- you know, if, if, if, if, if someone is, [02:47:00] you know, which is why we would set up these, you know, social punishments in the g- you know, "You're gonna, you, oh, you're the loser in the workout today? Well, your name's going on the whiteboard.

Everybody comes in here tomorrow, they're gonna know that you fucking lied," you know? Yeah. And if that's, and if your ego is on the line with that, then I've just set up not, you know, nearly fatal social circumstances for your ego. Yeah. You know? Or something like that. And, and, um, so what is... L- let's just take the conventional definition of, you know, oh, c- is could I get really hurt or killed?

Travis Bader: Yeah. I'm

Mark Twight: like, yeah, I think it's important. I think it's very important for, um, people to confront mortality. I

Travis Bader: agree. And I

Mark Twight: think it's very important to learn to respect it. It, it's very important for it to be out in the open.

Travis Bader: I agree.

Mark Twight: I think you need to see other people die.

Travis Bader: Yep.

Mark Twight: I, I, and because if it's nothing but video games and do-overs Then that translates into real life.

That translates into your respect for life. You [02:48:00] need to do, you need to love, you need to learn how to love, and you need to do dangerous things so that you lose something. Mm. So there's a potential to lose something that you truly care about. Man, you would be an incredibly polite driver. You would be respectful of, you know, letting other people do what it is that they wanna do.

Sure. You'd be, a- and-

Travis Bader: Well, it's the only thing that gives life value, is death. You, you- Infinite money, money is no value. Exactly. Infinite life, life's got no value.

Mark Twight: Yeah. We, we are sh- we're short-timers.

Travis Bader: Mm-hmm.

Mark Twight: You know? We're... A- and, but, but we don't r- we don't realize it. And, and I think it's in the, the, you know, confronting the con- the potential consequences of a dangerous thing, we learn our own value.

We learn what we value. Like, man, what would it... Man, if I've, if, if I, if I eat it right here, uh, what will, you know, what will I wish I would have done?

Travis Bader: Yeah.

Mark Twight: And there's a [02:49:00] sign, you know, I mean, it is a brilliant moment in that Fight Club movie, for example, of, you know, um, what would you do? You know, if you were gonna die right now, what would you wish you had done?

You know? It's- Yeah ... um, and it's, and, and it's- Good

Travis Bader: question, Raymond.

Mark Twight: B- Exactly. Raymond K...

Travis Bader: Hessel ...

Mark Twight: Hessel. Yeah. Yeah.

Travis Bader: I wouldn't have got Hessel if you didn't say K.

Mark Twight: What... Okay, yeah. What did you want to be? Yeah. That's right. But, I mean, there's that part, but there's the t- driving towards the bridge abutment part, too- Mm

or letting go of the steering wheel kinda thing. Um, but the, but I, uh, a- and th- this is, it is a way of establishing value and, and respect not only for others, but for yourself.

Travis Bader: Mm-hmm.

Mark Twight: And I think w- uh, uh, and I think we, uh, a lot of times... Okay, maybe I don't n- you know, i- if I... Who I am right now, I say I don't need to do dangerous things anymore, but I needed them to be who I am right now.

Mm. I needed to do them at a certain point to arrive at this point. I needed to... [02:50:00] You know, I don't, uh, have a, a look back kind of a thing with... Uh, uh, let's... I had this conversation r- uh, just the other day. I, I, uh, the regrets that I have are often things I didn't do.

Travis Bader: Okay.

Mark Twight: But then also the r- the recklessness with which I treated some other people on my way to- Mm

fulfilling my own ambition. But as far as, like, the big decisions in life N- none. I got to the point of making better decisions by having these dire consequences

Travis Bader: Right

Mark Twight: Always, I'll just say available, you know, for j- for anything that I was doing. And there's a cert- you know, it's flying the paragliders in those early days.

It is, you know, it's soloing in the mountains. It's being in the mountains generally and trying hard things. It's the fact of having a motorcycle. I, I, I, yeah, I think it's important, and I think we got the why.

Travis Bader: I, I think [02:51:00] we got the why. Yeah. And now we got the light on, uh, the important person here, so, uh-

lesson to self, bring bigger batteries next time. B- b-

Mark Twight: yeah. Or don't talk as m- don't,

Travis Bader: don't talk

Mark Twight: for as long.

Travis Bader: Oh, man, I could talk for hours, but I'll, um-

Mark Twight: Same.

Travis Bader: Um, Jason Budd, he put me onto you years ago when he first, uh, uh, turned me onto the Extreme Alpinism book. Says, "Mark, Extreme Alpinism had a huge influence on my journey in the mountains, and eventually through the IFMGA stream.

I look back at the person I was when I started, and I've acknowledged how much I've changed. My recognition of hazards is far greater than it was back then, but my acceptance of risk has decreased over the years. Looking back on the person who wrote that book, what's the one thing about alpinism or yourself you see completely differently today?"

Oh

Mark Twight: I [02:52:00] th- something he brought up there is the relationship to risk

Travis Bader: Mm-hmm

Mark Twight: And I think that is absolutely worth examining Yes Um, because th- th- the ch- the change that happened, you know, for me over time- Right ... is, you know, okay, I'm a punk. Uh, I don't have any attachments. I own no property. I basically have no money, and if I, you know, following the full punk ethos, I have no future.

Travis Bader: Mm.

Mark Twight: And I've already kind of decided that I'm gonna, my expiration date is 26 years old, and I'm gonna live, like, feverishly. I am going to live as hard as I can until the clock runs out.

Travis Bader: Mm.

Mark Twight: Without looking ahead, without playing chess, without looking, you know, however many steps, you know, where does this end?

How do I end up? Do I... No, I'm go- I'm headed for the ground, and [02:53:00] I'm gonna you know, do as much as I possibly can before I burn in. Not necessarily consciously so, but these things are always active, and it made... And, you know, there was, uh, Jim Jannuzzi used to make fun of me. You know, he was just like, "Yeah, that guy can barely climb 5'11"" You know, if he, if he had just focused on rock climbing, which was important to Jim, but if he had just focused on rock climbing, he would've been a lot better in the mountains.

And I'm just like, the, uh... I was not, you know, compared to other guys who were active at the time, I was not a very good technical climber.

Travis Bader: Mm.

Mark Twight: What separated me was, A, vision, but more importantly, risk tolerance.

Travis Bader: Right. The

Mark Twight: reason the Reality Bath got done is because both, you know, r- you know, both Randy and I had enormous tolerance for risk.

Travis Bader: Right.

Mark Twight: And, you know, our first attempt, uh, as you've read the thing, you know, we almost got chopped from the ice cliff, calved off on... Well, we were on the, this, the one part of the wall where we could survive, [02:54:00] um, where it was super steep and everything went out away from us. Right. It would've done... That wall was o- slightly overhanging, and we were just happened to be on it at that point.

Um, and the, and there, then there's another reason people with less risk tolerance did not go back for 37 years, and then- Right ... and then Baylan went. Right. And, you know, uh, a- and the arc of what happened in alpinism, in ability, risk tolerance, experience, collective knowledge, and that sort of thing, that th- th- that grew and developed over those 37 years is, uh, almost impossible for me to wrap my head around-

Travis Bader: Mm

Mark Twight: in some ways. But, um, and so the risk tolerance, uh, I, I think starts to diminish when we have something that, uh, when we start to have things in life which we value-

Travis Bader: Right ...

Mark Twight: more. And not more than alpinism necessarily, but more than, th- just more of, oh, I have, uh, a [02:55:00] primary relationship, a w- a, a person that I'm deeply in love with.

I am committed to that person by way of marriage. We own property together. Mm-hmm. Um, I really... You know, I'm doing this thing with, uh, my writing and my work and that kind of thing, and I feel like I'm actually, uh, if I keep doing, if I stick around and keep doing it, the outcome's gonna be really pretty good, not only maybe for me financially or, you know, in terms of being a fulfilled and satisfied individual, but also for the people that I'm teaching- Right

that I'm sharing things with. And so, and then I also believe that when we do these dangerous things for long enough, and we are aware, and we pay attention to self, and we analyze excessively perhaps- Mm ... things after the fact, we start to realize, like, "Oh, my reflexes are not the same as they were." And that's not just like, "Oh, c- you know, I move-

I move out of the way of the falling rock." Right. It's not... And, and I mean, that's, [02:56:00] that is a manifestation, but, but also it's a, it's a, it's a psychological reflex. Like, when you're deep, you're young, and the, you are so deep in the thing that it is all that you are doing. You're, you're b- you're breathing for that thing.

You're eating for that thing. You're doing the thing. Every, every waking hour is devoted to that thing. You are operating on a level that it, I mean, it's so focused, so entirely, uh, consuming-

Travis Bader: Mm ...

Mark Twight: f- that you, that, uh, even the, there, there is no ... The right decision is made immediately, and you gain a lot more experience.

You have a lot more information floating around. You've had a lot of different outcomes that have happened in a similar situation, and you don't immediately do the right thing. You go through this fucking stupid checklist- Mm-hmm ... of shit that And, and, and that, and then it's too late. Like, you ... And [02:57:00] even if you arrived at making the right decision, it wasn't instantaneous, automatic, fully sort of r- responsive to that, to, to that situation.

I, I mean, I, you know, tripped and fell on the trail the other day, and I'm like, "That, you know, that wouldn't have happened because I would've-" You know, because I used to be able to feel, you know, through my feet. Right. I used to, you know, I had a whole, a whole system of, you know, looking 40 feet down the trail- And then taking a-

taking a photograph. Yes. And then come, and then, and then, you know, it's a zoom in, zoom out, zoom in, zoom out constantly- Yeah ... and an automatic sort of thing that, uh, allows for a really beautiful, uh, you know, flow of movement, and then it's like, "Mm, uh, mm-"

Travis Bader: Is that- "

Mark Twight: I'm distract," you know? Is that

Travis Bader: tough from someone who's been known for his physicality to be, uh-

Mark Twight: Oh, yeah.

Travis Bader: Yeah. I could imagine.

Mark Twight: I mean, and, and, and [02:58:00] it's, you know, uh, s- somebody asked me, he's like, "So how many surgeries have you had now?" And I'm like So I've had a few, yeah Yeah I mean, I'm not, uh, there's r- pe- people have had more, but it's, you know, three surgeries on my left knee, you know, ankle fusion, both hips replaced, two reconstructions on my left shoulder.

Um, it needs to be done again, but I've kind of refu- I'm dealing with it at the moment- Hmm ... 'cause I just don't wanna take another year or more off of doing anything- Yep ... in life. And, uh, and so as the, the, you know, the physical vessel that I made of myself or developed, you know, I had a certain gift and then I worked on it, um, w- was what allowed me to have the experiences that I had.

Hmm. The, the, the vessel took my mind and my heart and my spirit to these places and did these things. And as the physical, uh, you know, that [02:59:00] vessel declines in its ability, uh, yeah, it's r- it's, um... I mean, I, I can be kind of enthusiastic b- you know, talking about it. There's times when it's just incredibly fucking depressing.

Sure. Like, I, like, I just have to like, "Oh, I need to dial down. I need to g- you know, f- uh, e- e- any kind of expectation of what I might be able to do or what I might-- the experience, experiences that are available based on, you know, the condition of the vessel."

Travis Bader: Right.

Mark Twight: And, uh, and it c- yeah, it can be incredibly depressing, but it's also, I'm like, "Man, I get to watch myself-" Having this experience, and I'm sensitive enough to be able to, I think, write about it.

Um, there's a piece on the, uh, on the Substack page. It's, that'll be in the, this new, uh, journal that I'm wor- been working on, um, called Age is a Verb, and a lot of it is about, you know, declining physical capacity and, [03:00:00] and l- and learning to love the life that is available with what I have- Mm ... now. I got, I can, I'll never be who I was.

I, my body will never be out, you know, and I could train hard, and I could be the thing, and I could be the guy that says, "I'm more fit at 70 than I was in high school." You know, or whatever, you know, 'cause people say stupid shit, but-

Travis Bader: Yeah,

Mark Twight: yeah ... um, and, and there, there for sure was an overlap of a point in life when my psychological condition and my physical condition, like met.

Travis Bader: Right.

Mark Twight: And it was, and it was glorious. And, and then the psychological condition continues to improve while the physical con- Right ... really declines, and this is, you know, something that I was, you know, trying to teach people who are running these physical training programs in the military for a long time, and I'm just like, "Look, you invest all this money in these, in these s- special operators, [03:01:00] right?

And they come in with the fucking physical skills of, like, superheroes- Yeah ... up here, and they don't know a fucking thing."

Travis Bader: Yeah.

Mark Twight: And then as all of the, you know, the schooling that they go through, all of the experiences that they have, you know, this increases, this increases, this increases, so now you're 10 years in, and this has come down a little bit maybe.

And then, uh, you know, there's some point there's a sweet spot- Right ... where you're at, at not peak physical capacity, but also not peak psychological condition or, or knowledge or- Mm ... emotional, uh, intelligence. And the goal that you need to be thinking about is to stretch this point of overlap for as long as you can.

Travis Bader: Mm.

Mark Twight: Because in order to get a return on the investment that you're making-

Travis Bader: That's where it's at ...

Mark Twight: that's where it's at right there. Yeah. It can't be, you know, oh, it's one deployment and then, you know. Right. And that, that can happen due to cer- you know, what happened on that deployment, for example. Sure. But stretching [03:02:00] out that, that, that, uh- period or that contiguousness of, of, you know, top psychological and top physical condition, um, should be the objective.

How you get there, I don't know. But if you gotta be aware of it first, you know, and you've gotta give these people sup- support, and if they're having emotional trouble, you know, like, then- Right ... you know, you need to have a culture where that gets-- You know, you wanna keep this person in the game. That's massive.

That support needs to exist. Yeah. You know, you know, if they're, uh, f- suffering from whatever mental condition that might take all of that experience and all of that physical capability off the table, but maybe they have a therapist that they can talk to. Maybe they have a, you know, a Y- y- God forbid, a psychedelic pathway that they- Sure

that they, um, em- embark on to recover their s- you know, psychophysical condition so they can keep [03:03:00] operating.

Travis Bader: And that's a podcast unto itself, too. Man, the number of people I've talked to who have positive benefits from-

Mark Twight: Yeah ...

Travis Bader: uh, from ayahuasca, psilocybin, from all these terrible things out there.

Mark Twight: I mean, there's, there's that, but there's also a culture of, um, uh, the culture of separation in, you know, f- from the military and ge- and intel- and intelligence communities are better, especially with contractors.

You know, I have some friends who continue to, you know, when they stopped working with the military, they went to work over in, you know, for this- Mm-hmm ... agency and contracting with this and that. And now that they're a bit older and less, and, and m- maybe can't do that job, now they're teaching these people who are coming through these pipe...

You know, there's th- so I think they're better at it, um, in, in both our military and our sort of national, international level athletic programs in, uh, the United States for sure. There's no off-ramp.

Travis Bader: Hmm.

Mark Twight: There's no... And you, uh, and, and the example was set, you know, the, in the, [03:04:00] you know, in the former Soviet Socialist Republic.

Um, uh, you know, the top level athletes had a s- basically a government, you know, subsidized and sports federation supported two-year to three-year detraining period, an off-ramp- Hmm ... when they were no longer competing at the highest levels. But maybe that means they're- That's brilliant ... maybe they're, maybe they're 26 fucking years old- Right

and they've got all this life still ahead of them, and they need to reintegrate because t- this sport is, and sport performance is all they've known.

Travis Bader: Mm-hmm.

Mark Twight: Oh, now they need to learn a skill. Now they need to learn, you know, what to do with the time that they used to spend training all the time. You know, however, sort of socially, work-wise, psychologically, everything to, uh, have a, to not precipitous glide path-

Travis Bader: Mm-hmm

Mark Twight: back to the [03:05:00] valley, in a sense. And, and we don't have that, and I think that's, you know, a lot of the emotional health issues for veterans in the US. I don't know how it is in-

Travis Bader: It's similar

Mark Twight: in

Travis Bader: Canada ... in,

Mark Twight: okay.

Travis Bader: Yeah.

Mark Twight: I mean, you're done, you're done. And then, and then, and you and your, your, the guys you've done all the coolest shit you've ever done in your life, you did together- Yeah

and boom.

Travis Bader: And you're

Mark Twight: going, "See ya." Four winds. Bye. "

Travis Bader: Love ya."

Mark Twight: Yeah.

Travis Bader: Is, I'm conscious of the fact that we're down one light- Yeah, we might, yeah ... and might, might lose the next one. Is there anything that we haven't talked about that we should be talking about?

Mark Twight: I don't know. I think we, uh... Yeah, what are you not asking? Well- What, what am I not saying, I guess, is the, is

Travis Bader: the- I've, I've got all of this that I've never even looked at. Perfect. And we're going through here.

Mark Twight: And we also had some ideas that we mentioned beforehand and, you know, before we started recording- That's right

that we also have not c- touched on any of them, which is perfect.

Travis Bader: Which is [03:06:00] perfect.

Mark Twight: Yeah. I, you know, it's, um, the, the thing that, one thing that I, because I'm in it, uh, that I find interesting is, is, um-

And, and we touch, we've touched a little bit on it briefly is that I get, you know, I've, I've had different careers-

Travis Bader: Yeah ...

Mark Twight: you could say. And some of you have said, "You've reinvented yourself all these times." I'm like, "Eh, that's not totally reinvention." It-- But because it's-- And as I said before, it's like trying to apply skills learned in this one activity to other things.

What, what are the, the universalities, you know, or the universal lessons, um, that, uh, that shine through all of this stuff? And I-- And, you know, if I was, uh, tr- thinking of maybe counseling some... You know, one of the great joys of the last couple years, um, and also some sadness with it, but, uh, has been to, you know, get to spend some time with some younger climbers.

Travis Bader: [03:07:00] Mm.

Mark Twight: Um, and, and especially this-- And, and one of the k- one of the g- guys, um, this kid, A- Adrian Costa, who is a phenomenal road bike racer, um, and, you know, shot through the ranks, got professional contracts, uh, recorded. There's a podcast on my Substack with him about sort of his journey. And, uh, it took some-- You know, he'd been exposed to the, to the mountains and that kind of thing, and he'd, he'd kind of burned out in Europe racing and came home, started going climbing, going climbing, going climbing, um, 'cause that was what was kind of feeding his soul.

Mm. And maybe he was gonna get back to s- you know, bike racing, but maybe not. And, and, uh, and had this really horrible accident where, um, he had to have, uh, part of one of his legs amputated. Mm. Because it pulled a rock off onto himself. You know, boulder field, was under it for a pretty long time. It was a pretty awful rescue.

And, and he's become-- I mean, he's, he's a really good climber. Um, [03:08:00] and, you know, he's got prosthesis and that sort of thing. Uh, and, uh, um, but he was, uh, talking about how, you know, if you are into the climbing with a, um-

Going climbing with intent rather than intensity.

Travis Bader: Mm.

Mark Twight: And, uh, he's, you know, 'cause we've, he's seen a lot of people, you know, that are like climbers who are just like all... Anybody doing anything, right? Even, and in the bike racing too, is, is, you know, the super high intensity commitment, effort, you know, full on c- uh, commitment of all possible resources in one's, one's life to this activity, and then you stop doing it.

Well, who the fuck are you and how are you gonna, you know, how are you gonna get down? How are you gonna con- Right ... continue living? What are you gonna do as a, you know, as, uh, your- It's

Travis Bader: your purpose after achievement.

Mark Twight: Purpose, yes. That was a, that is a [03:09:00] brilliant way to, to, to phrase it. And, and when you said that earlier, I was like, "I need to take a note," so thank you for saying it again.

Yeah, how do you find purpose after achievement es- when that ach- when achieving that and l- experiencing that was all that mattered. And, uh, and he, and he said, "Look, I, I, I think if you, you know, trade some of the intensity away for intention, so then the off-ramp from doing the activity will be less steep- Mm

and less abrupt." And we had the, the conversation, it's gotta be two years ago now, and I'm like, it's like, wow.

Travis Bader: That's

Mark Twight: good. This is, this was... And it, and it's something that I wouldn't have been able to hear when I was younger.

Travis Bader: Right. It's

Mark Twight: like, it's, "Ah, sounds like you're holding back a little bit, man." You know?

Pumping the brakes 'cause you're just not so sure, you know, whatever. Mm-hmm. And I g- And, and, you know, for me to g- do what I did and live how I lived, it was due to the intensity.

Travis Bader: Mm. [03:10:00]

Mark Twight: But the, but the rent comes due at some point, and, and, and so I, I believe that, you know, there, there is something there for younger climbers or, you know, people who are doing anything, um, you know, because especially if you're like down, "Okay, I wanna be in the Air Force pararescue jumper, you know, I'm gonna go down the PJ pipeline, and this, this is...

And it's one da da da da da, and then my 20, you're done." Um, or, or I get medically retired sooner, like I get... I have to lea- uh, you know, I get volunteered out- Yeah ... by somebody else. Um, and so then this thing that I was doing, that I was in, and it suddenly abruptly stops, like how do I adapt? Well, if I went into it with a little more...

And it's a-- I think it's, it might be an impossibility, um, es- you know, especially for ambitious and hungry young men.

Travis Bader: Yeah.

Mark Twight: You know, to, to see any [03:11:00] foot near the brake pedal or the existence of a brake pedal at all in the vehicle, you know, would m- it's anathema to, you know, some, some people. So maybe it's not there, but it, but, uh, his, but Adrian's, uh, idea of intention combined with intensity, uh, it's gotten, gotten me thinking about how to...

You know, you asked if I would do something differently, and I'm- Yeah ... and I wouldn't have dialed it back. You know, the s- pin the meter and, uh, a- a- and go. Um, st-

Yeah. And then not everybody gets to survive, I guess.

Travis Bader: Hmm.

Mark Twight: And, but it's important for those who do to bring the stories back, to communicate the stories and tell them, share them. And, uh, and because other- in, [03:12:00] in a sense, otherwise, what was the point? If, if-

Travis Bader: I agree. If it all dies with you.

Mark Twight: Yeah. Yeah. There's a, there's a, uh, someone who I think you would have an interesting conversation with.

Uh, it might be, you know, it could be remote, could be worth a visit to Calgary. Uh, a friend of mine named Ian Holmes has a gym there, and he is, uh Mountain athlete. He's done some pretty interesting things with a snowboard in the mountains. And, uh, but he's also quite cerebral- Hmm ... about fitness and life and that sort of thing.

And he queried me the other day, um, we've had this ongoing conversation s- for, I don't know, seven or eight years now, and, uh, queried me the other day. He said, "You [03:13:00] know, how do we-- The problem with you not, you know, working in the fitness, you know, business or, you know, training people anymore, is that all of the knowledge that you have will stay in your head.

It'll die with you."

Travis Bader: Hmm. "

Mark Twight: How do we get that, you know, out of your head and into the public consciousness, or is it just something that was, you know, was lived but can't be recorded and shared?" Sort of open-ended question that-

Travis Bader: Interesting ...

Mark Twight: I've, and, uh-

Travis Bader: What have you thought about that?

Mark Twight: Uh, well, I haven't-- I have not thought about it in the, necessarily in the context of fitness because, um, it would be-- Because the lesson, you know, for all of the time that I was in that space and the lessons that I learned and just like, look, it's if you don't have...

Okay, if you're, if you've got a shit relationship with [03:14:00] power, then you'll never, then whatever I just am gonna teach you here, uh, you know, you won't be able to, you won't be able to do.

Travis Bader: Mm-hmm.

Mark Twight: Um, if you're the kind of person who wants to train 150 clients 'cause that's the only way to make enough money to make it worthwhile, I'm not gonna teach you anything that will be useful.

Travis Bader: Right.

Mark Twight: Because I don't, I don't think it's possible. I think it, you know, because there, there's a difference between a trainer and a coach. There's a difference- Right ... between, you know, someone who's just holding you accountable and someone who is actually with you up, living up in your life, um, to, to, to, and who knows all of the circumstances of why, you know, you're not progressing.

Like, you know, what, what's the relationship at home? You know, why aren't you losing weight? Right. Is it because, you know, your partner, um, is not on the same journey as you, and why can't you do these things? Mm-hmm. You know, is the social support just not there? You know, that, and that is coaching. That, and, and so this is-- So I think it is something lived, um, and [03:15:00] experienced and maybe possible to share, maybe not.

That's for another thing. But the concept that, you know, what it relates to more directly Um, is, you know, Blair has been, uh, encouraging me, pushing me. She's like, "You need to write a memoir." And, uh, you know, like first I'm like, "Ah, no." And it's, I'd already said everything I need, you know, or s- whatever, lazy ass- Sure, sure

you know, point of, "Tell me what to do." Yeah. And she doesn't at all. She's- Lazy lark, I tell you. Yeah. Well, sometimes. Sure. But, um, but, uh, and so I've been, you know, it's, now it's been a year that this idea has been s- you know, circulating, and I've been trying, and I'm like, how do I... I don't want it to be a, "I was born here," and you know, and the, it's not a, a narrative of the stuff.

So, 'cause the stuff that I did is, yeah, it's the, that's the skeleton.

Travis Bader: Mm-hmm.

Mark Twight: Uh, [03:16:00] the support of structure of what I've learned, what I, you know, sort of experienced. And, um, and so, uh, like, okay, well, what's the, you know, what is a th- you, you know, what is a through line? What is consistent with all of these different things?

What is the, that North Star that we started- Mm-hmm ... to talk about, but then got diverted? Um- Yeah, I got

Travis Bader: ADHD. I'm all

Mark Twight: over the board. Well, well, I mean, that's how conversations go, isn't it? I love it. Yeah. And, and, you know, what, what are the, what are the through lines? And sh- Blair has suggested one, and, and I d- and then- Did you-

in conversation with Steve House the other day, I realized like, oh, this, there's another here, and now I have two things that have been fairly consistent that I think I can, um, use, uh, writing about different... And I think it's a, I think it's a sto- a memoir to me [03:17:00] would, uh, in this moment, would be a story of relationships.

Travis Bader: That makes sense.

Mark Twight: And if I'm writing, um-

Travis Bader: Relationship with yourself, the relationship with others.

Mark Twight: With others. Uh, a- and, and the, a- and, and the power of those relationships and, uh, the, the, the effect that those relationships had on my relationship with myself, potentially. Hmm. Could be. Uh, but I realized recently, um, there's a guy named Daryl Miller, who was the chief climbing ranger, uh, uh, at, um, Denali National Park for a lot of years, and he was a, uh, he's a bit of a mentor.

He's a father figure sometimes for me. He's a really, uh, powerful and important person in my life, and retired from the Park Service due to, um, Parkinson's and-

Travis Bader: Ouch ...

Mark Twight: escalated. You know, and it was managed for a number of years, and, uh, um, there was probably a I don't know, probably the last time then [03:18:00] just, uh, in 2009, and the next time I saw him was in 2023.

And, and, uh, Blair and I went up for a visit. And then, uh, and in 2023, I realized, like, how important this man was in my life. And, um, but, you know, sometimes I don't always answer the phone when people call. Sometimes, you know, I'm- Agreed ... um, a- and, uh, got a text from a friend in Talkeetna, uh, in June. I think it was, must've been June.

Um, he's like, "Yeah, Daryl's, um, you know, he's in hospice, and I'm driving down to, from, you know, driving down to Anchorage tomorrow to say farewell." I'm like, "Oh, shit. Okay." I didn't realize, you know, how things had progressed. Got in touch with another friend who was, uh, um, uh, PJ, um, and, and had, um, done some pretty, been involved in some pretty amazing rescues, and he, uh, I think he's retired from that job now.

But he'd been spending a lot of time with Daryl, help- helping Daryl and Judy and, you know, making his life as good [03:19:00] and as comfortable as it could be. And so- Sure ... sent him a text, and we got on the phone, and he told, and I said to, to, "Give me the no shit thing, you know, what's going on?" And, uh, he kinda walked me through, and, and then I said, "Well, I, man, I'd really like to, you know, hold his hand one more time."

And he said, "Well, you fucking better get here tomorrow."

Travis Bader: Hmm. And

Mark Twight: I get, uh, uh, went to the Delta Airline website. There was one ticket left, and I got it, and I, uh, got to Anchorage the next day, and, uh, by some good grace, I was able to get, uh, like, 10 minutes with him. And, um, and, and then Charlie Cecere and I, he was, um, we went to, went to dinner together, and stayed at his house that night.

We got back to the hospital the next morning, and Daryl passed five minutes after we got there. And, uh And then, you know, I have a few more hours with friends and, [03:20:00] uh, family, actual, you know. And then I got on a plane and came back down and started writing a piece about my relationship with Daryl. And it kind of started out as a eulogy that I wanted to write.

But then, you know, I started writing about all these different experiences that we had that w- that marked me s- you know, kind of strongly, uh, during various visits to Alaska. And I... And so I was... And a couple of them were really, you know, one of them for sure, uh, is really hard to write about, and I c- I haven't been able to finish that.

But I, I put a pause on that piece, um, about Daryl because I realized like, oh, this is, this is one of the relationships in a memoir. And, you know, the, the short period of time that I climbed with Randy, the six weeks that we spent together, you know, in Quebec and then driving across Canada and, you know, doing simul-soloing Slipstream and doing the [03:21:00] reality bath together and, and, uh, um, that.

You know, there's another relationship I would like to write about of trying now to understand how to, um, how do I write about, um, intimate relationships in a way that is respectful and doesn't cause more pain than maybe they end of them caused. Mm-hmm. You know, so I'm-- That's, uh... And it, and it's made me look back, and I was -- And I think, you know, one of the most, I think one of the most important, uh, essays in Kisser Kail is A Lifetime Before Death about Fred Vimall being killed and me, like, meeting him first and realizing, like, oh, man, he's g- he's gonna burn in.

Hmm. And I'm gonna protect my emotional state by not developing a friendship with this person. Right. And then running into him, you know, a year or two later, realizing, holy [03:22:00] shit, spending basically three weeks of a lot of time together, um, and then him getting killed.

Travis Bader: Yeah.

Mark Twight: And realizing, like, man, if I was not into self-preservation, if I was willing to, uh, recognize the potential for friendship and love, um, if I, and if I was willing to say it, then, um, I, then I-- the experience that I had with that young man would have been different.

Yeah. And, um, and so the gist of that story really is, you know, it's, A, don't protect yourself 'cause you're more durable than you believe, and emotional pain is survivable. Uh, and tell your friends that you love them because there will be a point when you can't anymore. And, uh, and so I think those-- And I'm starting to realize now after these conversations in this last sort of five-day period about this memoir idea, that it's the relationships that mark all of the different sort of, like, I'll [03:23:00] say careers, even though it's not that for- Right

but, um, manifestations of, uh, that North Star thing. And so we should, we should, uh, notice those things, notice those relationships and cultivate them, uh, when they have the power to affect us, change us, improve us

Travis Bader: If you're to look back

And say my life was a success. What does that mean to you?

Hmm.

Mark Twight: Well, the answer of a soon-to-be 65-year-old man is different than before Yes But I get to an- the only way I can answer is right now, and that's, um [03:24:00] And the glib answer is to leave the place better than I found it which you know depending on the context may be possible, may be not but if um

If other people's lives have been, you know, have changed and improved, if they've been able to, you know, quit doing the things that they weren't here for and found and pursued the things that they w- were here for, and that was a result of something I did or said or wrote

Yeah, that'd be it.

Travis Bader: Well, then your success. Mark, thank you so much- Thank you ...

Mark Twight: for being on the podcast. Thank you.

Travis Bader: I really enjoyed it.

Mark Twight: Wow. Me too. And yeah, thank [03:25:00] you for insisting. And it's, you know, after, after five years. And, and making the, and making the drive too. Um, it's, yeah, it's been really, really something.