Website: https://www.markkenyon.net/

Wired to Hunt Podcast: https://podcasts.apple.com/ca/podcast...

Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/wiredtohunt

MeatEater: https://www.themeateater.com/people/m...

That Wild Country Book: https://www.amazon.com/That-Wild-Coun...

Transcript

[00:00:00] Travis Bader: I am Travis Badder, and this is the Silvercore Podcast. Silvercore has been providing its members with the skills and knowledge necessary to be confident and proficient in the outdoors for over 20 years, and we make it easier for people to deepen their. To the natural world. If you enjoy the positive and educational content we provide, please let others know by sharing, commenting and following so that you can join in on everything that Silvercore stands for.

[00:00:40] If you'd like to learn more about becoming a member of the Silvercore Club and community, visit our website at silvercore.ca

[00:00:51] Today I'm joined by the renowned conservationist, host of the massively popular Wired to Hunt podcast author, angler, hunter, and resident whitetail guy at Meat Eater. Welcome to the Silvercore podcast, Mark Kenyon. 

[00:01:05] Mark Kenyon: Hey, thank you, Travis. I appreciate it. I'm glad to be here. . 

[00:01:07] Travis Bader: Absolutely. Well, took me a little bit to get through that intro there, but we got there.

[00:01:12] Um, yes. So you've got a reputation, a reputation of being a hardworking whitetail hunter, but you also have a reputation which precedes you, that, uh, uh, you might be aware of or you might not be. I was having sitting by the campfire, waiting for the lamb to rose stop. We're having dinner with a friend of mine who has worked with you in the past.

[00:01:34] Mm-hmm. and unsolicited. She brings up you and she says that you are genuine and that you're kind, that you're modest and you're professional. And those are the four things that really stuck out in my mind, completely unsolicited. And I thought, this is really cool, coming from an industry where, you know, I've, I've done chats before with people and they talk about ego in the industry.

[00:02:01] particularly when it comes to social media and trying to, I guess you have to promote yourself and promote a business. Yeah. For you to be able to navigate that terrain and still go through with a reputation of being modest and kind and genuine. That was what really intrigued me. What made me want to chat with you.

[00:02:20] Um, I don't know if you've heard that before. Chances are you probably 

[00:02:24] Mark Kenyon: have Well, I, I really. I really appreciate that. And uh, and hearing that kind of feedback is, is maybe the best thing I could ask for as far as, um, a reputation preceding me because those things are really important to me. Those are things that, uh, that matter to me, and I'm, I'm glad that that's, um, You know, how people are perceiving, um, what I bring to the world, I guess.

[00:02:49] Um, it is a pet peeve of mine seeing so, so much of that ego and bravado and, um, yeah, there is a lot of that in the world in general and within our in general community. I think in our community there's definitely a lot of opportunities for that. And, um, and so I, I try to avoid that kind of stuff and just, um, Oh heck, I don't know.

[00:03:13] It's hard 

[00:03:13] Travis Bader: talking about yourself, isn't it? ? 

[00:03:15] Mark Kenyon: Yeah. Yeah, it always is. But um, but yeah, I, that was really kind of her to say that. And, um, I'm gonna try to keep on living up to that reputation and, and that's maybe the best thing I can do. 

[00:03:26] Travis Bader: Well, when you look at. A person like who's really in the public eye. So Bear Grills, I've read a few of his books and he talks about, there's bear and there's bg, there's the internet persona or the TV persona, the action hero, bg, which is built up by others, not necessarily himself.

[00:03:49] And then there's bear the person at home with his family doing his thing. And I get the sense. that you probably run into a similar thing where others will, will portray you in a certain way. But the difference between the MK and the Mark are probably a little bit more level, like what you see on tv, what you see in social media is probably pretty akin to how you are 

[00:04:14] Mark Kenyon: Yeah, you're, you're spot on.

[00:04:16] That actually is, um, I think maybe that's different for me compared to a lot of folks. Yeah, the, the public media space. But I, I think what has, maybe what has separated me in some regards from others within the outdoor media space is that, um, I don't have some superhero persona that I can put on. I don't have a Superman cape.

[00:04:38] I can throw on and impress people. I'm not, um, You know, there's, I've seen a couple different ways to establish a voice and credibility within the world of, you know, outdoor media or probably any kind of media. But there's, there's like the expert, there's like the expert. Guy. Mm-hmm. or girl who's like amazing at everything.

[00:04:58] They're good at everything. They know everything. Um, and they wow you with how great they are. Hmm. Um, and when I came into this, I came into this with no, you know, leg to stand on within that world because 15 years ago when I started doing this kind of stuff, I was just a kid who was in love with this lifestyle.

[00:05:17] I loved it. I lived it. Mm-hmm. . It was everything I thought about, but I wasn't an expert. I was just someone. with, with passion oozing from, from every single kraken seam. And so what I brought to the table 15 years ago, and what I've realized is all I really can bring to the table. Is the very real story of my experiences chasing these passions and my unending curiosity to learn more.

[00:05:43] Um, so yeah, like what you see on TV is 100% the same person that my wife sees, you know, in the evening, um, because I'm, I'm not. I, I, I can't impress anyone. I'm just who I am. . I'm just a goofy, lanky guy who's a nerd, who has a lot of books behind me who loves to read, who loves to learn who's who, who loves the outdoors and who would do anything he could do to, to.

[00:06:07] to keep them around for future generations and for my kids. And I'm a goober and I, you know, , that's just, that's all I can do. I, I, I've tried at times in my career or I felt pressure to try to, you know, I felt like I had to be like this person or that person. I'd see someone who was a role model of mine, or I'd see somebody who's doing well in this thing or that thing, and I think, oh, I need to be more like that if I want to succeed or achieve my goals.

[00:06:34] And every time I've tried to do. , I've fallen on my face. Mm-hmm. , that doesn't, that doesn't resonate with people because I can't be something, I'm not. The only thing I've found that has led to success for me is just leaning into being as authentically me as I possibly can. That's not going to appeal to everyone.

[00:06:52] Not everyone's gonna like what I bring to the table. Not everyone's going to appreciate my message or my mustache, or my hats or my, whatever it is. . But that's all I can be. All I can be at the very best is, is who I am really, really truly. And so I've, I've finally gotten to a place where I'm comfortable with that.

[00:07:10] Mm. And um, and I think for those people that I resonate with, that's the best way that I can be of service to them. 

[00:07:19] Travis Bader: Well, you're building your audience of people who. who want to see the genuine you. How difficult would it be to live a life where you are putting on that different persona, where you're out in one place and you come home?

[00:07:33] You know, it, it brings to mind a local telecommunications company that we have over here called tes. And before it was BC Tell. And there was a point in time where if you got a phone bill and let's say you dropped calls or pager or whatever it was, dating myself a little bit, uh, and you wanted to negotiate your bill down with the company, you had to get mad at them.

[00:07:55] Mm-hmm. and you had to. , uh, get a supervisor on the line and go through this whole process. And they, I remember I didn't like doing that. I didn't want to have to go and I would ask them like, do I have to get mad in order to get this down? I mean, go through this whole thing. And then they'd escalate it.

[00:08:10] And they had this whole procedure in place. Yeah. And at one point they made a switch cuz they realized that they were training their audience to basically, or training their customer base to get mad. , like if you want to have, that was the interaction that they were having. And so all of a sudden they said, you know, you can get as mad as you want.

[00:08:29] We're not doing anything. However, if you're kind and respectful and we go through this process, we'll bend over backwards to help you. And I thought that was, from a business perspective, very interesting that you train your customer, but also from a just sustainability and growth standpoint for somebody like yourself in this sphere.

[00:08:49] I see you as a leader in the industry and you are essentially training the people who follow you as to, uh, how you would like to be treated. If, let's say you ran into them when you're out hunting by your example, and you do a lot of that through example, you're not out there preaching, but there's a lot of example driven.

[00:09:09] Are you actively thinking of it sort of as in this telecommunication case, or is this just something that you, you're doing? 

[00:09:16] Mark Kenyon: I, I think. It's not necessarily something I'm actively thinking about all the time, but it is, um, I feel like as my platform has grown and I reach more people with what I say and what I do, um, I do have a recognition of like the responsibility I have because I, I am leading it by example, whether in a good way or a bad way.

[00:09:40] And, um, , I have realized that's that's a responsibility and an opportunity, right? Mm-hmm. . So it's a responsibility that that falls on my shoulders whether I want it or not, because a lot of people see and hear what I do. So that's inherent. But then also you can look at it as an opportunity, and I do, because almost the only reason I do what I do now.

[00:10:02] Um, which is, you know, write about, talk about and produce films and videos about hunting and fishing and how we can, you know, continue doing those things in a positive way and promote the future of these things and protect the future of the things. That's what I do, and I do that because A, I love it.

[00:10:22] It's the only life I could live. But then b, all of my energy now is, is more and more geared. giving back to this thing, protecting this thing, conserving this thing. Um, that's, that's where my energy is really focused, hopefully for now in the next 35, 40 years, however much longer I have on this earth. Um, and so I look at this as an opportunity because there are a lot of things that I, um, can see within the world where.

[00:10:50] we need to make progress. We need to, as a community or um, yeah, as a community. Like we need to be working towards things or we need to be acting in certain ways or we need to be speaking about and representing ourselves in, in certain ways. Or we need to fight this fight, um, support this cause, whatever it is.

[00:11:07] Mm-hmm. . And you mentioned like, I could go about this. I could. Work towards those goals by preaching about it all the time. And you know, talking about these things is important. Mm-hmm. , but I don't think anything. Right. You know, it's the old cliche, actions speak louder than words. There's nothing that speaks and nothing that can, um, Promote something or showcase something, nothing more than you actually doing it, um, is as powerful as that.

[00:11:32] So I do look at the fact that, hey, I have a platform. There are some people who pay attention to what I'm doing and I better walk the walk if I plan to ever talk the talk. So, so yes, I, I think about this stuff. Not all the time, but I do reflect on it and, and, and will. You know, try to take the opportunity to think through, okay, what are the things that are important to me and important to the future, these things I care about so much.

[00:11:55] Um, are you living that way just as much as you are saying you do. 

[00:11:59] Travis Bader: How do you find that balance though? I mean, if you come in to something that you are so passionate about and you just, you love what you do, love being outdoors. You love the connection with nature, you love the hunting. And, you know, it's like that old adage of, let's say somebody who's really good at their job, they're the top person at the local business that's, uh, let's say the top janitor.

[00:12:21] And they promote that person to a level where now they're the manager of all the other janitors. And they're like, you know, I, I've been growing in this space, but I don't enjoy managing. I enjoyed what I was doing before. Do you find that there's a difficult balance as you grow to continue to do what it is that you're passionate about or are your passions evolv.

[00:12:42] Mark Kenyon: You know, it's a good question and it's one that, um, you know, I, I was actually talking to someone recently. They, they had asked, you know, if I, if I harbored interest in, you know, getting more into the business side of things or the managerial side of things, or the leadership side of things, um, and, and.

[00:13:00] What I said and, and how I feel is that I want to continue to have leadership, but I want to lead with the tools that I have passions and skills around. And that's not necessarily in business or in manager managing. Um, it's communication, storytelling, speaking, writing, like that. That's where I have some level of skill and that really nice.

[00:13:26] Matches up with my passion because you know, if you wanna speak and tell stories or communicate, having lived experiences about those things, sure as heck helps. And so I'm able to continue, you know, doing the things I love outside hunting and fishing and camping and backpacking and all those things because it.

[00:13:48] Gives me a foundation to then speak and write and film and, and tell important stories. So, um, I I I will say like, I don't wanna do anything else in my life. Like, I don't, there isn't a next step, there isn't a next job. Um, you know, uh, the, the basic. Job description of being a storyteller and a writer and a, a, a speaker about these things, um, a storyteller about these things.

[00:14:13] That's what I want to do. I just want to continue doing it and speaking to more people and, and hopefully having a, a larger impact. Um, 

[00:14:21] Travis Bader: they say leadership's the art of influencing human behavior as to accomplish a mission in the manner so desired by the leader. And, you know, if your. , you clearly seem to be driven by something more than just hunting and fishing than just being outside.

[00:14:37] And I'm from an outsider looking in. Family seems to play a very massive role with you that seems evident just from somebody looking in. Um, staying grounded seems to be something that you actively work on in order to, um, as you move through your career and your social media. , uh, what would you say is your guiding principle that's kind of pushing you forward that allows you to be outside, to do what you love to do, but is your, uh, your North Star, I guess?

[00:15:16] Mark Kenyon: Yeah. Um, so there's, there's two parallel I guess lines. I would think there's this, this line of. Purpose, I think is a big thing, and just having like a purpose focused life I think is something that has helped me stay true to, to things. And then there's like foundational principles or, or virtues maybe that then guide how I do that.

[00:15:46] I think so I, I have, I have, I'm very purpose, I'm very goal. purpose focused. So I need to have a thing that I'm chasing or a thing that matters a lot to me that I can keep my eye on. Mm-hmm. . Um, and so those things would basically involve at this point, you know, one is working towards a better future for wildlife and wild places.

[00:16:07] Like that's, that's top of the career focus that's top of. , anything along those lines. Everything needs to be working towards that. Um, and then on the personal side, it is, you know, supporting, working towards, you know, supporting the long-term future and satisfaction and, uh, you know, whatever obligations I might have when it comes to my family.

[00:16:28] Right, right. Doing right by my family, raising my children, being the husband that my wife, um, deserve. . Mm. So those two parallel tracks would be, and those things work together, I think. But those are the two main purposes in my life. And then I have. You know, virtues and principles of life that then, you know, give me the foundation to do those kinds of things.

[00:16:51] So those would be the things like trying to be grounded. Those are the things like continued self-development. That's a really important thing for me. Um, never losing your curiosity. I think that's something that has been a guiding, um, I don't know if it sets a virtue or principle or what the heck that is , but that's, that is a huge foundational part of me.

[00:17:10] Just, uh, I am obsessed with learning. and growing and, and, and, and exploring new things and, and reading and studying and, and being a student. I think maybe that's what being a student of, of everything that I explore. Um, so that's something that then fuels those two main purposes. Um, uh, I think, you know, just the basic.

[00:17:35] The very basic things like your family teaches you growing up, right? Integrity, being a man of your word, being true to what you say you're gonna do. Um, treating others the way, I mean, very simple things. Being treating others the way you want to be treated and, and, and simply living a good, um, positive life.

[00:17:52] Being an example for others. I mean, you know, this isn't new to the new to the world kind of concepts here. No, but I, I, I try to live in that kind of way while moving towards those, those two larger important purposes in my. 

[00:18:03] Travis Bader: A lot of the things you're talking about here are very stoic in nature, and Yeah.

[00:18:07] That's a new sort of, I mean, e everyone seems to be talking about stoicism since I think Ryan Hall has really popularized it and others. Yeah. Uh, my wife says, uh, you know, Mark, he, he displays all these stoic virtues. I'm like, what is that? Right? I don't, I don't know what this is. Right. And she's like, well, you're a stoic Travis.

[00:18:27] I'm like, I, I still don't know what this is. Right. , but I think you were actually named in by b h a. They, they had, uh, attributed that to you. Is that something that you actively seek out or is it something just has been labeled to you just by the way that you 

[00:18:44] Mark Kenyon: act? Uh, well, I, I think. I have developed an interest in the stoics and stoic philosophy by, you know, folks like Ryan Holliday and Tim Ferris.

[00:18:53] And so, so I've read pretty extensively on those topics and I've just found so many parallels and so many, um, like that tho that set of tools that stoic philosophy provides so neatly. Dovetails with so many of the challenges that I faced as a hunter, as an outdoorsman, uh, or even as a, as a writer or anyone in business like, it, it's, it's simply like a tool set for dealing with life.

[00:19:22] And I found it to be a very useful tool set. Um, and, uh, and yeah, so that's, that's, you know, something. I'm perfectly fine being, um, you. In that conversation, cuz I think it's a useful set of ideas. Mm-hmm. in a, in a pretty decent way to go through life. And it's, it's certainly helped me, 

[00:19:41] Travis Bader: you know, I don't have all the answers.

[00:19:43] I'm what, 46 I think I am right now. I gotta double check that one. Um, but one thing that I have found, if you want to be happy in life, it is that progressive realization of a worthy ideal as, um, Earl Nightingale would put it, but. The fact that you're always learning and always sort of building. For me, I like to build things.

[00:20:06] I like the creation of something, uh, not necessarily the ongoing upkeep of everything that I create and, and being in there, but if I've got something that I'm putting together and building and watching it grow, there is a natural byproduct of enjoyment and and happiness. It seems to come from that, and it seems like.

[00:20:26] Nailed that on the head with the constant learning, with the progression. Something that you're working towards. Because if I've built something and it's doing well, I, I will become bored with it after a while if I don't have something new that I can learn. If it's not pushing me or challenging me or Yeah.

[00:20:41] Or building something that's going to, and when I'm young, you start out like, how can I, how can I build myself? And then after a certain point you're like, how can I build something that's gonna make it better for others? 

[00:20:52] Mark Kenyon: Yeah, a hundred percent relate to that. Had had those very same experiences. Um, I, I can't handle stagnation.

[00:21:00] Mm. Um, so, so yes, growth, exploring new things, uh, I have to be doing, there's gotta be another project. There's gotta be the next thing to chase after, to explore to, to, to work on, to, to pursue. Um, to my wife's chagrin, I, I can't, I can't just. and B Yeah. You know, the, I, I, I have to have, you know, a cause a purpose, a something that I'm, that I'm working on building, whatever it might be.

[00:21:29] Um, and then, yeah, like I, I, I definitely had a progression with my career where just like you described, you know, early on it was just, you know, could I find a way, you know, I started my career in the tech industry working regular, right? Nine to five. Yes. There you go. Um, and. Right around that same time, I realized within weeks of starting that job, I realized like, oh wow, this is not how I can spend the rest of my life.

[00:21:51] Um, but I'd started a website the summer prior about deer hunting, and I thought, you know what? I bet you, I bet I could do something with that. And I decided like that fall, like I'm going to, I'm gonna find a way to take my passion for deer hunting and, and make that a living somehow. I don't know how, but I'm gonna.

[00:22:07] And, and so for four years I struggled to do that. I worked to build that thing on, you know, nights and weekends and all that kind of stuff. And so early on it was just like, could I make this thing work? Could I somehow make a living doing this thing I love? And then, you know, was able to do that. And then it was, okay, can I do this?

[00:22:22] Well, can I, can I, you know, reach the top of this? , I don't know, ladder that I'm, I'm climbing up right now within that world. And then okay. I was able to do that. Um, and then some, somewhere around, you know, eight, 10 years into doing that is when I started having these, you know, realizations where, um, it had to be about more than just me.

[00:22:43] Mm-hmm. and, and I, I was so head over heels and love with. , the, the, this world that I get to spend time in the, the natural world. Mm-hmm. , wild animals, wild places, wilderness. I mean, I'm, uh, head over heels is really the only way I can describe it. Um, and I wanted so badly, so desperately to keep these places around, um, that I just, I knew, you know, that that's what I need to be doing.

[00:23:10] That's, that's the only way I could feel I could use my talents or skills or sweat equity for something worthwhile like that. the place, like there's, you know, all sorts of different people are built differently. They've got different skill sets, they've got different things they could do in the world. Um mm.

[00:23:27] I can't solve world poverty. I can't cure cancer. Um, but I, but I know like this is where I'm supposed to do my thing. And, um, and so that was, I don't know, 5, 5, 6 years ago, something like that, when I kind of realized that this was, the path that I need to pursue. Mm-hmm. . It's not trying to be the best deer hunter in the world.

[00:23:46] It's not trying to be the most famous, you know, TV show host in the world. It's none of those things. Um, it, it has to be focused on that grid or good that I could work on. And so that's been guiding my decisions since that point. Um, and that's where I'm continuously even now trying to figure out, am I doing that well enough?

[00:24:05] What do I need to be doing differently? Um, how do I, how do I matter? How do I make a. , 

[00:24:11] Travis Bader: do you have that conversation with your, with yourself often? 

[00:24:16] Mark Kenyon: Relatively? Yeah. I mean, I really do. Um, especially each year, you know, come New Years. Right. That's a great time to reflect. Mm-hmm. . So we're just coming off of that this year and I, you know, sat and spent a lot of time thinking about it.

[00:24:28] All right. Have your actions, you know, have the choices you've made in your career or with the content you're producing, or whether the projects you're pursuing. Are you, are you working enough towards that goal? Are you doing enough? Or do we need to start tweaking things? Do we need to change some things?

[00:24:43] Do we need to reconsider some things? Do we need to tackle new projects? Um, but yeah, I think that is something I think about fairly often. Um, especially if you. and gosh, I can g i I, I gotta be careful not to get preachy, , but, um, preach. But if, if you pay, if you pay attention to anything when it comes to the environment or public lands or conservation, anything like that, if you pay attention to what's going on in the world around us, it's really easy or it's really hard not to.

[00:25:17] Areas of, of danger, areas of worry, areas for concern, threats from every different angle to our public lands, to our clean waters to. So many different things. Sure. And we can go, sure. There's a, a million different angles you could go there. Right. There's so many different things that threaten the future of these, these places and these animals and these opportunities that, that mean a lot to me and I think to a lot of other people.

[00:25:40] So, so I, I'm constantly reminded because of that. So I'll, I'll constantly get this, I'll be reading something them more and drinking my coffee and I'm like, oh my gosh, this place has got this, this thing happening to it. And, and, and I can't imagine a future in which we don't have this. Whatever it is. Yeah.

[00:25:57] And you can, you can find yourself, get depressed pretty quickly if you let that, um, that consumes you. You let this Yeah. Consumes you. And I'm constantly reminded of something that, um, Yvonne Sard says, has said, which is the, the greatest cure for depression is action. I, I'm constantly, whenever I find myself reading an article or seeing some new study about, you know, how this wildlife population is going down the tube, or how this animal is just about to go extinct, or this new mining project is going to, you know, devastate this headwaters of a salmon run or something, right?

[00:26:31] I, I, I just constantly remind myself, well, the only way to deal with this, you know, negative feeling right now is, is action. So what can you, what can you do? Do you. , do you 

[00:26:41] Travis Bader: find you battle with that, that negativity? Is that something that manifests itself a little 

[00:26:46] Mark Kenyon: bit? Like a thinker? Yeah, I'm a thinker. Um, and so I have the.

[00:26:51] you know, I can, I can dwell on things. Sure. Um, I'm, I'm generally a positive, happy person, so I don't have like, depression issues. Right. I don't have that, but I do have the ability to sometimes just be like, really bummed out about stuff and, and maybe upset about things. And so then the question is just what do you do with that feeling?

[00:27:10] What do you do with this? Do you just read this stuff? Do I just become like this guy? reads about everything that's wrong with the environment. Everything that's wrong with wildlife reads and know, I know everything there is to be said about the million threats to our wild places in environment and waters, right?

[00:27:25] But what good is that unless you act on it? And so that's what I constantly try to remind myself of is, is it's no good to just dwell in bad news unless you're gonna take that information and do something about 

[00:27:35] Travis Bader: it. So when I was young, I was diagnosed with. And there are people who get energy from being around Other people call 'em extroverts right in, in a large group, and they're just more and more energized.

[00:27:51] I've always found myself under that definition to be more of an introvert. When I am around other people, I enjoy it. , but at the end of the day, I'm feeling drained. Like if I have to go to shot show in Vegas or one of these L man, by day one and a half, I'm done. , right? Yeah. Um, but I found just being in nature is something that creates a bit of a, maybe forces me into a meditative state, allows me to be reentered.

[00:28:21] And I think there's huge. To everyone having a better connection with their natural environment. I'm curious what it is for you where you say you absolutely love it. Like you just love it. Is it something that you need that fuels use in a similar way that I need to get out into the 

[00:28:39] Mark Kenyon: wild? Yeah. 100%. Um, it's, it's, it, it, it does all of those things and, and all of my, um, My greatest memories, my greatest, most powerful experiences, the.

[00:28:56] You know, outside of my family, the only thing that, you know, would get me up in the morning incredibly jazzed. The only thing that I'm incredibly excited about doing, the thing that, um, does refuel me, that recenters me, that gives me excitement and, and momentum moving into the future. I mean, all of those things revolve around, uh, the outside world in.

[00:29:18] those things you can do out there. And, and that's been the case since I was a little kid. Um, you know, the, the things I loved as a child were animals, right? I mean, that's a pretty natural thing. Sure. Um, for a lot of kids, right. We have an innate connection to nature. They call it biophilia, is this theory, um, that we were, you know, because we evolved surrounded by these other life forms, uh, we are predispositioned as humans to have an innate connection to them.

[00:29:43] Ah, and some of. Stray from that. Some of us eventually become divorced from that through, you know, choices to live farther apart from nature. But it is an inherent human thing to, to feel what you feel when you go outside. And for me to feel those same things. And I think. Oftentimes you get someone who's lived in the city and, and been an office worker and, and never had that opportunity to get outside and see these places.

[00:30:09] Do these things have up close experiences with wild animals if they never had that opportunity? Mm-hmm. , but then they're in, they're invited to go on a trip and they go to a national park and they see a buffalo up close and they come around a corner and there's a grizzly bear standing in the river and.

[00:30:22] Spend three nights out there and see the stars at night and and hear the wind whistling through the trees and all those things, they all of a sudden realize like something has been tapped. They've tapped into something that was there all along that was lying latent deep down inside their chest that now they're all of a sudden experiencing and realizing that a part of them all of.

[00:30:42] Son is being able to, to, to live mm-hmm. that never did before. Um, and I think that's what I was just very fortunate to encounter and experience at 2, 3, 4 years old and never left it. And I've just continued to try to experience that as much as I possibly can ever since. 

[00:31:01] Travis Bader: You know, a lot of people tell me that it's fear that prevents them from wanting to go out and explore wild places, whether that's fear in the ocean of sharks, even if they're in an area where there are no sharks or.

[00:31:11] Fear of the unknown is usually what it is. Fear of bears. I hear that one a lot. Yep. Um, I understand you used to take Tylenol PM in order to get through the nightmare in Bear country. Yeah. Do you still do 

[00:31:24] Mark Kenyon: that? Yeah. No, I don't . Um, but yeah, the first, uh, when I started backpacking in grizzly country mm-hmm.

[00:31:34] is when, uh, when I started taking that because yeah, I, I grew up as I alluded, like doing outdoorsy things in Michigan. Mm-hmm. , um, and Michigan's kind of like a, I love Michigan. We have some great outside opportunities, but it's a slightly like domesticated. Of the wild world, right? Mm-hmm. , we're not in British Columbia.

[00:31:52] There's not grizzlies around every corner. Mountain lions and wolves and really wild, wild stuff. Mm-hmm. . Um, so I had, I had a great beginner's, um, it was like a beginner's guide to the outside world. Mm-hmm. . This was my, my outdoor experiences at that point. And it wasn't until after college that I set off and started going west and having some of these different experiences.

[00:32:13] And so I started backpacking, I started going into really wild places, really off the beaten path. And so at. Yeah, that's when I, you know, had those first encounters with, with critters that could eat you for dinner if they really wanted to . Um, so for that first couple years, really, you know, going to sleep.

[00:32:29] I mean, it's, you know, being in grizzly country when you're not at the top of the food chain, it's different. It is, isn't it? it is different and so early on, especially when you don't know much about it. Mm-hmm. and it's so brand new. Um, I was even, you know, skittish around black bears early on. Mm-hmm. . Um, but you know, with time and experience and exposure, you start to understand how to operate in those types of places.

[00:32:53] Not, uh, living in a world of fear. Mm-hmm. . But I think with respect, I think, I think that's how I approach bear country or grizzly country or really any kind of risk in the natural world is not. Focused. Mm. But, uh, with a, with a healthy level of respect for the real risk, the realistic risks, understanding it, preparing for it, operating within, um, you know, operating within a knowledgeable sense of, okay, how do we, how do we deal with this?

[00:33:22] How do we do this stuff in the right safe way? Um, so yeah. It's funny you. , my dad, yeah. Has never spent like that kind of time in grizzly country and doing these kinds of things. So it's just different. Right. Yeah. And so now we go up to Northern Michigan and like he wants to go for a walk in the woods and he wants to carry his pistol.

[00:33:40] And I'm like, there's like a couple black bears somewhere around here, but there's nothing that's going to, you know, nothing to bother worry about it all. Yeah. But you know. He, he just hasn't had the exposure in time in these places where there are some things that are a little bit more, uh, dicey. Yeah. So it's just what you're used to.

[00:33:55] It's what you're used to. It's where you spend time, it's what you develop a comfort level with. Um, and man, there's certainly still things that scare me out there. Um, but um, yeah, late 

[00:34:05] Travis Bader: at night you hear a bump, buffalo's rubbing up against your tent in the middle of the night. . Yeah. Yes. I think that happened to you and your wife.

[00:34:11] There you go. Yeah. 

[00:34:12] Mark Kenyon: Yes it did. Um, so, so yeah, I think. , the wild world is such a great place to confront that kind of stuff though. Hmm. I mean, I don't think there's, I don't think there's any better way to learn to deal with discomfort or fear than putting yourself out there against the original elements in other critters that, you know, again, back to that thing I mentioned a second ago, like those were the.

[00:34:38] Like that was the iron that we sharpened ourselves against to become humans, right? Mm-hmm. , we evolved. We became what we are now by going out into the wild and surviving, finding food, finding shelter, dealing with the elements, dealing with other wildlife out there. Like that's what made us who we are.

[00:34:55] Mm-hmm. . So what better way to, you know, continue to confront what it means to be a human? Yeah. Than to go back into that original, you know, landscape. We started, 

[00:35:08] Travis Bader: I find it really interesting as we evolve as humans, how disconnected we started to become from our food and from the process and from our natural environment to where we are.

[00:35:19] I, I feel like the pendulum is swinging back when people are talking about the 20 mile diet or 50 mile, I don't even know what the proximity is, but, uh, locally harvested or forage forged food, um, getting back into. Basic virtues that are, uh, our forefathers would talk about and stoicism being one of them.

[00:35:41] I find it, I find it rather interesting that it swung so far, and everyone, a lot of people would look at that and say, oh man, you know, the future's looking terrible, but nature's got an interesting way, of course, correcting and yeah, I, I, I just, I think it's, when you talk about people good at getting out to nature and connecting with those primal.

[00:36:03] I see like through Covid, people were afraid they didn't know what was going on. They watched the media, they listen to the news, they um, they figured the world's falling apart. Everything's getting shut down. And there was a huge up uptick in people wanting to get hunting license. I found wanting to get outdoors cuz they're getting all cooped up.

[00:36:23] Um, Do you see that pendulum shifting? Or was that, do you think was a momentary kind of blip because of Covid and it's gonna start going back to where it was? 

[00:36:35] Mark Kenyon: I, I mean, I think there's, there's two things. I think one, it was definitely like a unique set of circumstances that. Kind of disproportionately encouraged getting back outside, right?

[00:36:47] Mm-hmm. , because there was all these inside activities that people just couldn't do anymore for, for some months. Mm-hmm. . And so it, it pushed some number of people, millions of people. Turns out, as far as the numbers tell us. To go and try this stuff again or try it for the first time. They've, maybe they saw hunting on TV or they heard about a friend who did it, and this was finally that time.

[00:37:06] Well, I got nothing else. I can't, I can't go to the movies, can't go to the mall. Um, let's try it finally. Mm-hmm. , or let's try kayaking, or let's try hiking. So there definitely was that covid wave. and, um, I think what we've seen, what, what the numbers seem to tell us now, is that a certain percentage of that, I'm not exactly sure what that, you know, percentage might average out to be across, you know, different activities, but a certain percentage that have stuck with it.

[00:37:29] Mm-hmm. , a lot of 'em have gone back to their, you know, whatever they're doing prior, but a lot of folks have stuck with it. So I think we had like a, a special blip in the radar that bumped it up. But then I do think like there is just, there's always going to be. Portion of the population out there that recognizes that inner longing that I talked about earlier.

[00:37:54] Mm-hmm. . Um, and, and so I think maybe 20 years ago there might not have been as many opportunities for people to follow that. . And by that I mean like there might, there, you know, with the technology we have today and the media we have today, there's, there's an opportunity to be exposed to a lot of new things that you maybe wouldn't have and to learn about them and to go really deep into that process.

[00:38:22] Um, unless you had like a mentor or family member who is into it. Mm-hmm. . So I think there's a little bit of a unique opportunity now to capture that maybe 20% or whatever the number is, of people who, who feel. inside of them. Like, man, I, I, I kind of feel like when I watch Planet Earth, I feel something there.

[00:38:39] Right? But my family doesn't go to national parks. My family doesn't hunt, my family doesn't fish. We, we live in Chicago or whatever. And I feel very far removed from that. Those people 20 years ago maybe never would've been able to, you know, explore that anymore. Um, but now we do have so many opportunities for people to, you know, go down that worm.

[00:39:01] You know, of YouTube videos or Instagram accounts or podcasts or whatever it might be, and at least explore it a little bit. You know, it's, there's still a, a tough gap to bridge to get people actually out there still. Um, but I think we're seeing that resurgence of interest in these kinds of things, and we finally have, um, you know, the media to sup to, to, to fulfill that desire, at least that curiosity that people have.

[00:39:26] Mm-hmm. . And so I think that's something we're, we're seeing. Um, there's always gonna be this, this backlash to like the onward quote unquote progress. And uh, you know, um, I hear you of folks moving farther and farther away from nature. Like that's, that's where things are going. But I think there's going to be some percentage of people that are gonna say, Hey, what we're leaving behind here really, really matters.

[00:39:51] And so it'll be interesting to see, you know, where. , you know, where the numbers and the demographics continue to go. But cer certainly seems like outdoor pursuits. Um, whether it be hunting, fishing, or just more non-con consumptive things like biking. Mm-hmm. , backpacking, camping, all that kind of stuff. You know, there continues to be increased interest there.

[00:40:12] And, um, you know, generally I think that's a good thing. 

[00:40:16] Travis Bader: So you're podcasting because you brought up different modes of media, whether it be social media or TV shows, podcast. , your podcast is very popular. It ranks quite well on an ongoing basis. When you look at Chartable or these different, different places, how did you find that podcasting and getting your voice out there changed the direction of where you're going or amplified the direction?

[00:40:44] Mark Kenyon: Yeah. Um, it was surprising, um, a little bit in that I. It ended up being more impactful than I realized it would be. Mm-hmm. . Um, I, I, I was fortunate that I was relatively early to the podcast wave. Um, you know, I started the podcast, you know, I started working on it in 2013 and launched it in the spring of 14.

[00:41:05] Um, so, you know, it was just before it really, um, spiked up, you know, I was like, one of the. Deer hunting podcasts out there at the time. Hmm. And, um, you know, I came to that simply because I was pre, I was writing about this stuff. I was doing videos about this stuff. Um, and I, I saw a natural hole in the market.

[00:41:25] Basically. I was a podcast consumer already, mostly, you know, about business and marketing and different things like that. Um, and I saw, oh man, these, these people are producing something that's really, really useful. Mm-hmm. , and I don't see, I, I can't get this kind of information, at least at the level that I wanted it in this space that I was creating stuff on and consuming stuff with it.

[00:41:46] Mm-hmm. . And so I saw an opportunity there and I knew that was a, it would be a natural. way to continue teaching and, and talking about the stuff that I was doing at the time. And so and so, yes, I started it and it was a wave of, of growth and a different level of connection with my audience that I didn't quite expect.

[00:42:07] Um, so yeah, it grew like gangbusters and really it allowed me to connect with my audience in a. way in. I think a lot of podcasters and even consumers of podcasters have now recognized that that's, it's, it's a different format than, you know, reading an article or watching a YouTube video or whatever.

[00:42:29] It's, it's in many ways feels like you're sitting down and having a conversation with someone. Mm-hmm. right there in your earbuds. And you know, sometimes it's for weeks and weeks on end, months on end. So I developed. A somewhat one-sided, intimate relationship with tens of thousands of people. Right? Um, and that, you know, that was a lot different than what I was doing when I was just writing a daily 

[00:42:52] Travis Bader: blog.

[00:42:54] Well, some of the attributes of someone who's living a stoic lifestyle would be having grit, not complaining, being able to push through in difficult times. A side effect to that I would think is if people don't see your difficulties or your struggles and they, geez, there's nothing you're complaining about, you must have had it all served to you on a silver platter.

[00:43:16] Man, it must be easy for Mark to get where he is. It was the right time, right place. He's lucky, right. Background, whatever it might be. What are some of the difficulties that you had to overcome in order to be where you are now? 

[00:43:31] Mark Kenyon: Yeah, it's, it's a great point. And there's, there's kind of two sides of it.

[00:43:36] Like I, I would say that the. , uh, when it comes to the activity that I talk about the most on my podcast, for example, just hunting, mm-hmm. , um, I actually found that by sharing the nitty gritty failures along the way, that happened to me all the time. I failed all the time. . Um, that's actually what resonated the most with my audience.

[00:44:01] And that stood out compared to a lot of the other stuff. Mm-hmm. , because there, there's a lot of heroes out there who do it all right. And who are amazing what they do. I kind of talked about this earlier. Um, and that that wasn't me. Mm-hmm. , I was this guy who, who loved it, but was still figuring it out. And, and so by, you know, I could either try to cover up all the mistakes I was making and all the failures I was making, or I could embrace them and, and share them.

[00:44:26] So I struggled with all sorts of things when it comes to, you know, the hunting side of, of what I do. Right. I've, I've made every mistake you can make. I've screwed up. I've, I've approached things the wrong way. I've done it all. Sure. And, and I, I decided at times, I've, at times I did not talk about it cuz I was so embarrassed or so upset.

[00:44:47] Right. Um, but the times when I did talk about it, I would get so much feedback from people appreciating that I talked about this and how it helped them, you know, deal with a similar thing they dealt with or, or gave them something to think about as they worked on their own journey. Um, so I've, I've now gotten to the point where I've realized like, I can do the most good by sharing my.

[00:45:07] because that's a good point. Um, you know, we all, um, we are all human, right? Yeah, totally. And I think, I think that we can learn most from our most human moments. That's what I've kind of found with, with my platform. So I try to share all that now in a way that, you know, we can make some kind of positive out of these mistakes.

[00:45:30] Um, . That's a long-winded way of saying my hunting failures are well documented, . Um, sure. And, and I'm criticized for it sometimes because how does he, how does he possibly screw up again? This guy sucks. I hear that , um, still goes. Um, but on the flip side, I think there are some people who might look at, you know, where I am today with my platform or the, the work I produce in my career.

[00:45:56] And, and say some of those things you said, right. Um, you know, ab about ah, this guy had it on silver platter. Why is this guy up there who, you know, whatever it might be, this guy, overnight success, whatever it is. Mm-hmm. . Um, and I have been absolutely fortunate. I mean, there's, there's definitely things like I've.

[00:46:14] Privileged opportunities. I, I've had some lucky breaks, I've had all those things. Um, but I think the thing that probably is, um, the standout in my mind, I guess, is not that, um, there was any one right thing that I did or that there was any horrible catastrophe that I somehow overcame. It was rather. You know, a million tiny incremental steps that have slowly accrued over many, many, many years.

[00:46:41] Um, I, you know, for four years I worked, you know, a, you know, 60, 70 hour day job, whatever it was at Google while. building wired, hunt behind the scenes all night. You know, staying up till three in the morning, waking up at four or whatever it was to get in any kind of time I could every single day grinding away at that thing, never making a dime.

[00:47:03] Mm-hmm. . Um, I get lots and lots of messages from people saying, how do you do what you do? I want to make a thing like this. I want a podcast. I want to be a YouTuber, I want whatever. I wanna write a book. Mm. and they're like, I've been working on it for two weeks, or I've been doing it for the last six months and it's not coming together yet, and whatever it might be.

[00:47:20] Um, and I think it's really important to, to remember that in most cases there aren't overnight successes. Usually it's, it's a lot of grinding away, slogging away, trying to get a little bit better today and a little bit better tomorrow, and do a little bit more. And that's been my story. It hasn't been that I've had you.

[00:47:38] Some horrible thing that I had to work through. It was just simply sticking through the, the many, many, many, many, many years of, um, you know, not feeling like I was going anywhere with it, or not feeling like I was making a difference, or not feeling like anyone listen, was listening to what I had to say.

[00:47:55] But, you know, just believing that purpose enough that I would just keep doing it, keep doing it, and trying to keep, get, keep getting better. and, and that I think has been my story for the last 15 years or, or so that I've been doing that. Um, so essentially that's 

[00:48:11] Travis Bader: been, yeah, essentially what you're saying is you're an overnight success.

[00:48:16] It only took 15 years. . Yes, exactly 

[00:48:19] Mark Kenyon: right. . It's uh, 

[00:48:20] Travis Bader: exactly. And friend of mine, he would make millions. He'd lose millions, make millions. He'd lose millions new endeavor doing something one place and then sell it. And he is doing good. Easy come, easy go. And, At one point, he looked at me and I'm like, I'm plugging away at my business.

[00:48:40] And I have no business background. I'm school of hard knocks. Lucky to have gotten through school as it is, and I'm looking at him, I'm like, wow, man, you're, you're doing really good. Like when he's on his upswings and he's like, Trav, don't do what I do. Keep doing what you're doing. The people who I know who are most successful in.

[00:49:02] With their businesses are the ones who will plug through and continue to work when the times are tough, when there's no money coming in, when, uh, everyone is against them and they just keep plugging forward. And I've always had a, uh, that in the back of my head as something, and I've, and I've found that to be true as.

[00:49:23] Continue, I'm gonna make not necessarily mistakes. Even as you go through life, you can take different branches. I once looked, but another person pointed out and says, well, maybe that's just part of your path as you go through life. And those branches as you call it, which didn't turn out to the suc, be the success that you thought they would be are the learning experience that you needed in order to get to where you are.

[00:49:47] Yeah. So you, your success story as you're going. And I guess it comes down to what a person defines as success for themselves. Um, but from an outward exper, uh, external appearance of success from maybe a traditional, uh, standpoint has been that of plugging away on an ongoing basis. I find that, I find that really interesting and I, and I guess I would lead to a question as well, and you're about to say something, what is success?

[00:50:17] Mark Kenyon: Yeah. So it is been a changing definition for me. Right, right. So, so early on, success was, um, trying to make a living, doing this thing I love. Mm-hmm. And then it was trying to like, establish myself as a credible, um, Like, you know, it was just trying to stake out my place within that community. Mm-hmm. . So first I was able to make it work, and then it was okay.

[00:50:44] Now I want it to be a credible, you know, I, I, I remember, I do, I do. I'm this, I'm this cheesy kind of guy who does like five year goals, right? It's not cheesy. 

[00:50:54] Travis Bader: It's good. You need a goal, you need a destination. . 

[00:50:57] Mark Kenyon: So I ran across an old notebook of mine from like 10 years ago where I had my five year plans, like what I, where I wanted to be from a business perspective, where I wanted to be from a personal perspective, from a financial perspective, all that kind of stuff.

[00:51:11] Mm-hmm. , uh, and so one of them was like, I wanted to be, I can't remember the exact wording, but something like one of the most respected and, um, you know, impactful. personalities within the deer hunting world or something like that. Mm-hmm. . Um, so it was stuff like that, like I wanted to have staked out a place at the top of this deer hunting community at the time.

[00:51:32] Mm-hmm. . Um, it was those kinds of things. And success now has shifted, you know, we, we talked about this a little bit, but success now is working towards that larger purpose, which is I want to make. Serious, long-term positive impact on the future of wildlife and wild places. Like that's, that's success now.

[00:51:52] Um, you could, uh, I don't care anymore about if I'm some big, fancy, successful, well-liked hunter or something. Hmm. Um, that, that has lost its shine for me. And now I, I just want to make sure that my kids and their kids, Have wildlife to see and experience and hunt or fish. I wanna make sure there's still wild places you can go and get lost in.

[00:52:17] I wanna make sure there's clean rivers that still have fish in 'em. Um, that's, that's, that's it. Now. Well, how old are 

[00:52:23] Travis Bader: your kids now? 

[00:52:25] Mark Kenyon: I, my boys just both had birthdays over the past week. Okay. So I now, I now have a five year old and a three year 

[00:52:31] Travis Bader: old. Holy crow. Yeah. And are they coming out on any of your adventures?

[00:52:38] Mark Kenyon: Yeah, a lot. They're, uh, it's, it's a lot of fun. It's, it's changing the game for me. That's, that's for sure. But, uh, they both love the outdoor life and, you know, we're fortunate to be able to spend a lot of time out there and just take them, you know, with. With us for as, as much as I possibly can. So we spend a lot of time camping and hiking, and we've got a boat.

[00:52:59] We float down a lot of rivers and throw a lot of rocks, catch a lot of frogs, catch minnows. Um, I take the boys, I've taken the boys on some hunting trips now with me, a lot of fishing. Um, so, so yes, as much as I possibly can. They are, they're out there and seem to be loving. 

[00:53:17] Travis Bader: I was asked to put a few years ago, I was asked to put together a video of citing in a rifle and it's up there on YouTube and trying my hand at doing some video work.

[00:53:26] And I brought a fishing rod with me cuz I was down by an area where I knew there'd likely be some fish. And so when I wasn't filming, I was out there catching some fish and. Carbon fiber rod and I lifted on up and there was the area that I was doing it in had these power lines going overhead, and then my first indicator should have been when I'm pressing, like record on the camera.

[00:53:49] It was making a kind of a snapping sound and I'm getting this feedback coming through the ears as I'm listening to the audio. Anyways, I'm lifting up the, the fishing rod and my rod said vibrating in my hand as I do it each time. I'm like, I think I'm gonna cast a little bit lower here. Right. Uhhuh, . But it brings to mind you've been struck by lightning, haven't you?

[00:54:09] Mark Kenyon: Well, I, I don't wanna say it goes so far to say I was struck by lightning. Okay. But I felt like, uh, I can't even remember what it was called. It's um, it's like the beginning shock of a lightning bolt. Okay. So I was, I was, I was walk, I was fishing, I was walking to a river and I had, I was holding my fishing.

[00:54:27] upright, and there was a storm coming in and I was, you know, pushing my luck and wanting to try to fish before the storm got really gnarly and I was, I, I, I felt like this vibrating feeling mm-hmm. In my arm and me. Yeah. And at first I didn't realize what it was and like, I just like, put my hand down and turned around, was like looking around, looked up and I'm like thinking, not realizing.

[00:54:47] And, and when I did that, it stopped and I was kinda looking around. I'm like, that is, what is that? Am I just noticing this weird. . And then I kept walking, put the rod back over my shoulder, kept walking, and then it happened again. And that's when I realized, oh, this is electricity coming down. Wow. Through the sky into my fishing pool.

[00:55:03] So I didn't have like a, I didn't have a real bolt. Okay. Okay. Just, um, just that there's a word for it. I can't remember. Alight right now. Something like that. It's the beginning of those electrons starting to connect with you and, uh, so I was very lucky it didn't become anything worse. 

[00:55:17] Travis Bader: No kidding. What was your, uh, , I think you've documented a few of these things.

[00:55:24] Do, do you have big plans for next hunting season coming up? Are you able to talk about any big plans that you have? 

[00:55:31] Mark Kenyon: Yeah, I, I mean, um, I wouldn't call 'em. I mean, I don't know what you call big plans, but, um, but yeah, I'm filming, I'm filming a series of six different hunts this coming season across the country.

[00:55:44] Um, some of those locations are T B D, uh, but these will be kinda like short films for the Mediar YouTube channel. Um, Every place from stuff locally here to Michigan to hopefully maybe Montana, some western states. Um, a little bit of the great plains in there too. Um, documenting kind of a, a wide array of hunting opportunities and some conservation stories within those.

[00:56:10] Hmm. Um, so that's, that's on the hunting side. And then, You know, hopefully starting to work on some, some bigger writing projects. Again, tackling some of these things we've talked about really that I'm excited about. Um, and so that's, that's kinda the big stuff staring at me in the, hi Harry. All eyeball.

[00:56:26] Right now, , 

[00:56:28] Travis Bader: I, I did a podcast with a fellow, he's, uh, four time bestselling author, uh, nine books. He is written and he was working on his 10th book, and he says, , I'm not gonna finish writing this book. Now that AI is out here and they've commoditized, uh, uh, text in all s mm-hmm. . So he's making mm-hmm. , he's gonna put together a documentary, I guess, speaking about what he's, his plans there.

[00:56:49] But I, I wonder how much, um, uh, AI and, and the, the, the changing landscape of how people are consuming literature is gonna impact the, um, uh, future of book. . I wonder. 

[00:57:03] Mark Kenyon: Yeah, I don't know. Yeah, it's something I've, uh, something I've wondered about a lot too, just especially with some of these more recent, um, you know, chat bots and stuff over the last three, four or five months that are really pretty reMarkable.

[00:57:15] Mm-hmm. . Um, it will be interesting to see how that changes things. I think it will commoditize, you know, your basic. Copywriting and things like that. Mm-hmm. , you know, basic elements of writing. I think it'll become a tool for larger writing projects, but I, I don't see ai, at least not in the short term.

[00:57:35] Replacing, um, the human experience. Mm-hmm. That's something that artificial intelligence can't yet have. Um, and so at least for the next, for the foreseeable future, I think I'll still have a job there if I continue living life and, you know, pursuing things of interest, uh, and having something to say. I think.

[00:57:57] There isn't a Mark Canyon robot yet that can tell it any realer than I can at least. 

[00:58:02] Travis Bader: You know what's funny? I actually typed into it. I said, what questions would you ask Mark Canyon? It comes out. I'm like, I don't like any of these things, and I don't think he would either. So I think we're safe for a little 

[00:58:11] Mark Kenyon: bit.

[00:58:12] Yes. We'll, uh, enjoy, enjoy our paychecks and our, uh, our wellbeing for the moment at least. Is there anything 

[00:58:19] Travis Bader: that we haven't covered that we should touch?

[00:58:24] Mark Kenyon: I don't know. I mean, I, I, I've enjoyed chatting about all this stuff and, and I just would encourage folks to, you know, if, if you've got a, an interest in the outdoor, in the outdoor life, keep, keep pursuing it, keep chasing it, get outside, uh, you know, all good things come to those outside. I'd say if you're looking for something, you can usually find it out there and.

[00:58:46] It's, it's always done me, right? 

[00:58:48] Travis Bader: Well, I'm told that I'm supposed to put it bookend it, front end, back end. So if you are at this point, make sure to check out the Wired To Hunt podcast with Mark Kenyon. I like, comment, subscribe, uh, it helps a lot, gets the word out there. Uh, share it with your friends. Mark, thank you so much for being on the Silver COR Podcast.

[00:59:07] Really appreciate it. 

[00:59:09] Mark Kenyon: Yeah, thank you, Travis. It's a lot.