Silvercore Podcast 144 Ian Sim

Book referenced by Ian: https://tinyurl.com/yzhp43as

[00:00:00] Travis Bader: Today's guest has nearly three decades of experience with the RCMP, including roles in North Vancouver, federal units, and university policing. He has trained throughout North American firearms, national security, counter terrorism, and both public and personal safety. He has a rich background in criminal interdiction.

[00:00:29] Travis Bader: Welcome to the Silvercore podcast, Ian Simm. 

[00:00:32] Ian Sim: Good day, sir. Nice to meet you. Finally, 

[00:00:34] Travis Bader: it is good to meet you, man. We've had a lot of back and forth through text message and email, well, mostly text, I guess, say, and then voice talking back and forth. Yeah. It's been a bit now, hasn't it? 

[00:00:45] Ian Sim: Yeah. And well, and I was going to try and meet you earlier, but a month of COVID kind of gotten the way.

[00:00:50] Ian Sim: Um, but then I realized we've got a lot of Friends in common. 

[00:00:55] Travis Bader: Yeah. We, we got a lot of mutual acquaintances and friends, don't we? Yep. Yeah, I think, uh, you were saying you watch your very first podcast and that was, uh, the one with Seb. Yeah, Seb Lavoie. That's right. 

[00:01:06] Ian Sim: Um, I, we've crossed paths a number of times in the RCMP over the years, um, on the range, uh, empty hand training course, um, some commonality in, in, um, with some covert stuff.

[00:01:25] Ian Sim: Yeah. Um, Yeah. And then I talked to him, he's big with the podcasts and yeah, my really, my first podcast I watched last night with you and Seb. 

[00:01:36] Travis Bader: Well, I'm flattered to be your first podcast. Um, what's kind of interesting here is recently. So I, I traveled up north with my wife and we went to a, Uh, well, I guess I can talk about it now.

[00:01:49] Travis Bader: Usually I leave the names aside, but it's already been aired, but I went to Rachel Attila's place and we recorded a podcast. She's a professional rancher. She's a professional trapper, professional guide. And she had spent about four years trying to get an authorization to carry a restricted firearm to protect her life out in a remote wilderness area.

[00:02:09] Travis Bader: And of course the firearms act regulations permits that. And it says, if you're working in a remote wilderness area, you're not allowed to Um, if you meet the certain requirements, you can go out and you can train. And it's been massively well received, lots of comments, lots of people emailing, lots of people contacting the office.

[00:02:26] Travis Bader: And one of the things that tends to come up a lot is, well, that's all well and good for somebody who's working out in a remote wilderness area. Why can't we defend ourselves? Why can't we? Stand up for ourselves in a similar way to how the Americans will stand up for themselves in the States against a two legged predator.

[00:02:46] Travis Bader: Why is it only applicable for wilderness areas and remote areas? And I think you have some background in this and you've got a very proactive approach to communicating information. I've looked at some of the stuff you've done within your policing career and you, you've You operate a little bit differently than the norm, which really intrigued me.

[00:03:10] Travis Bader: And I can go into that further in a bit, but I'm going to let you chat. Oh, 

[00:03:14] Ian Sim: yeah. Well, self preservation is, is the first law of nature. Yes. So, um, what the last million years, let's say, tens of thousands of years, um, security of person is the first law of humanity.

[00:03:42] Ian Sim: You know, security of person, section seven of our charter, everyone has the right to life, liberty, and security of person, not to be deprived thereof, except in accordance with fundamental justice, um, section seven of our charter is, is the right of all rights, without which all your other rights are meaningless.

[00:04:03] Ian Sim: If you're not safe, your other rights are useless. Um, and it, and it's, it's security of person. 

[00:04:15] Travis Bader: Right. 

[00:04:15] Ian Sim: These are not group rights, collective rights, mob rights. These are individual human rights. Um, most Canadians can't tell you what section seven of the charter is. I just call it the right to be safe, but it is the right of all rights.

[00:04:34] Ian Sim: Section seven. Well, where did, where did security of person come from? UN declaration of human rights, 1948. Security of person, Canadian bill of rights, 1960, security of person, Canadian charter of rights, 1982, security of person. So security of person is a thing, been around for a long time. And we're filthy rich Western democracy here.

[00:05:08] Ian Sim: We've had it very good for a very long time. Uh, we're still, you know, in around the world, we're still one of the top destinations that people want to live in. And as a result, we have probably lost sight of, um, the concept of Democracy, liberty, human rights. Um, they just really haven't been that much of a thing.

[00:05:36] Travis Bader: Why do you think that is? 

[00:05:38] Ian Sim: Because we're a rich Western democracy. We've had it good. Um, we, we, we haven't faced, uh, you know, um, wars and famine and pestilence. I mean, COVID was a bit weird, but so, you know, we've done many things, right. Some things were just maybe good luck, right. Uh, and we'll take it, but you know, I worked almost a decade, uh, at, uh, UBC, University of British Columbia.

[00:06:05] Ian Sim: I'll meet kids out there raising money for Amnesty International, you know, say, Hey, how's it going? Um, you know, what do you think the most important human right we have is under the charter now? You know, a lot of, um, international students, some are American, so they're not familiar with our charter, but even the Canadian kids, they're like, um, you know, and they're out there raising money for Amnesty International, which is a race based, rights based organization.

[00:06:31] Ian Sim: And they can't tell me what the charter says. Most people can't. And, and I understand it. And I just think that we need to perhaps put a little bit more of that in our high schools. Um, you hear rights all the time, right? Everyone's got rights. Everyone's claiming rights. You know, you, you hear it at protests, counter protesters, um, but.

[00:06:56] Ian Sim: The charter is the Supreme law of Canada and the Supreme court of Canada will assess our legislation, municipal, provincial, federal against the charter. It's not perfect. Um, you know, uh, there are, there have been countries where, you know, um, 1930s Germany. Um, a lot of what they did was legal courts, judges, Western democracy up until that point.

[00:07:31] Ian Sim: Um, you know, people stack the Supreme Court in the United States. People kind of try and stack the Supreme Court up here. It's not perfect. I get it, but you know, our Supreme Court, And our system in Canada is pretty good when you compare it to the rest of the world. 

[00:07:48] Travis Bader: Yeah. I mean, it's not going to stop people from complaining.

[00:07:50] Travis Bader: There's always going to be things that can poke holes in. I get it. I've been guilty of it myself, but when we take that a little bit more of a, uh, overview, take a step back and look at it, there's a lot. That is good with the system that we have. And I think if people are properly educated as to how this system can work for them and how perhaps the system is designed to be, uh, to be used.

[00:08:20] Travis Bader: I, I, I'm hoping that will at least in one small piece be where this podcast can help people. 

[00:08:27] Ian Sim: So I'm not going to change the educational system in BC probably, uh, or Canada. Um, but when I talk at, uh, I've talked at university classes before, I've presented there, I presented at Douglas college criminology courses.

[00:08:46] Ian Sim: I presented and taught courses at the justice Institute. Um, the topic of rights often comes up. I recently taught a class at the Justice Institute on police leadership for international students. Okay. Mostly lawyers from various countries around the world and inevitably rights comes up because, you know, they're, um, most of them, uh, are, you know, Uh, are, are so thankful to be in Canada studying, many of them want to stay here.

[00:09:17] Ian Sim: And that's in large part because we have rights because Canada isn't like back home. So we do a lot of things. Well, uh, I think history is important, the good, the bad, and the ugly. And it's interesting that the, the international students sometimes are more interested in our rights and sometimes no more.

[00:09:42] Ian Sim: So, and, and, you know, different, they're coming from different cultures, different countries, India, Iran, Brazil. I walked in a class, uh, that, that last class I taught and some of the students stood up when I walked in the room. Hmm. As a sign of respect. Yeah, I was stunned. I like, I kind of looked over and I'm like, what's going on?

[00:10:04] Ian Sim: And then I quickly clued in as to what was happening. They were a bit older. Um, many of them were lawyers, um, but, but very polite, very respectful. Um, it can get a bit, uh, Testy in with Canadian kids in Canadian classrooms. I'm good with it. Everything's on the table, A to Z, just let's not yell and scream at each other.

[00:10:25] Ian Sim: So, and then working at the university of British Columbia for almost a decade, I had the opportunity to meet people from all over the world who I never would have met otherwise. And I get stuck right in, Hey, how's it going? Where are you from? Um, some clearly aren't interested in talking to a uniformed police officer.

[00:10:47] Ian Sim: Um, many are. Sure. I was there during COVID, BLM, US election, you know, as, as a white colonial settler cop, as I was, uh, called once or twice. 

[00:11:03] Travis Bader: Um. You've never heard that before, have you? Right. 

[00:11:06] Ian Sim: So, you know, I defund the cops. All cops are bastards down on rec beach. I mean, rec beaches is. It's kind of an alien planet on an alien planet.

[00:11:14] Travis Bader: Yeah. A little microcosm unto itself. 

[00:11:16] Ian Sim: You know what? It's got a very, um, colorful clientele. And I, I, I, I mean, I wouldn't have it any other way. Yeah. I mean, that's part of the reason why I went to a university of British Columbia. 

[00:11:26] Travis Bader: Yeah. 

[00:11:27] Ian Sim: But we need to do a better job. Um, with, um, our history, celebrating what we got right, celebrating what we do right.

[00:11:39] Ian Sim: Um, and not forgetting, uh, lessons of the past. Um, what to do and what not to do. And I, I just, rights are a thing. They're not going away. 

[00:11:50] Travis Bader: Right. You know, there's some people who would look at the charter of rights and freedoms and say, you know, it's fantastic. We've got these rights enshrined and there's other people who would look at that and say, who is this government to say that this is our rights?

[00:12:05] Travis Bader: These are God given rights. These are inalienable rights. So I've heard people argue that on both different sides. Do you have thoughts on that? 

[00:12:14] Ian Sim: Yeah. I mean, everyone wants the rights to go their way. So is there a hierarchy of rights? I think so. 

[00:12:27] Travis Bader: Okay. 

[00:12:27] Ian Sim: I think I've maybe alluded to what I think is the right of all rights, which is the right to be safe, section seven of the charter, everyone has the right to life, liberty, and security of person.

[00:12:41] Ian Sim: I don't know what order all your other rights come in. I'm just pretty sure that section seven is at the top of the list. It's numbered number seven, but again, if you're not safe, what good are your rights? 

[00:12:56] Travis Bader: And I'll, I'll read it because I, I printed it out here, so I'm somewhat familiar, but it says everyone, everyone has the right to life, liberty, and security of the person and the right not to be deprived thereof, except in accordance with the principles of fundamental justice.

[00:13:12] Travis Bader: So it's not an unfettered right. They have some constraints around there, which they call the principles of fundamental justice. And I'm sure a lawyer would be able to opine further on that, but it seems somewhat nebulous. I 

[00:13:29] Ian Sim: mean, was it true, uh, Winston Churchill that said, you know, democracy is the worst political system we have in the world, except for all the others.

[00:13:39] Ian Sim: So it's imperfect. Um, Um, you know, I'm, uh, I'm, uh, uh, perfectly imperfect human being, uh, somewhat damaged by 25 years in policing. Right. I got yelled at a lot on rec beach during COVID. I get yelled at occasionally when I presented classes, um, and I'm like, okay, you're angry. I get it. It's university. This is nothing new.

[00:14:16] Ian Sim: What are you angry at? The past, the present, the future. Yeah. Oh, you just want to yell and that's okay, too. I'm good. Right. Um, and that was mostly American and Canadian kids. Um, from what I could tell, um, our international visitors and the international students thought we were rock stars. We're down there doing foot patrols on the beach.

[00:14:41] Ian Sim: Um, they're like, you don't talk, talk to the cops at home. They will steal from you. They will rape you. They will kill you, all the above. Um, and even the Irish kids, they're not, they're not going to steal their stuff, get raped or killed by the cops for the most part. But they're like, yeah, you just, you don't talk to those guys.

[00:15:05] Ian Sim: That's a sad commentary coming from, uh, what we'd think is a, is, well, what is a Western democracy? The brain, you guys are amazing. You're friendly, you're funny, you're professional. Um, and you know, before you know what, it's, it's, it's photo time. Um, and, and never really give it much thought until I started working at UBC and on Rick Beach.

[00:15:28] Ian Sim: Right? So I I perhaps we just take for granted what we have. Don't give it much thought as to how we got here, where it came from. Um, yeah, the rights. I mean, who gives us, who gives us our rights? Does God gives us our rights? I don't know which God, who's God, 

[00:15:47] Travis Bader: right? Who's God are we talking about now? Um, 

[00:15:50] Ian Sim: is it, uh, Trudeau Sr.

[00:15:53] Ian Sim: That gave 'em to us? And, and brought them over, uh, in 82, um, is, is it, uh, the current government? Well, no, it's, it's, it's none of the above. Um, your rights are your human rights, which are by definition, minority rights are yours by virtue of being born into the human race. 

[00:16:14] Travis Bader: What do you mean by minority rights?

[00:16:18] Ian Sim: So your human rights. Are a limitation on the power of the state. 

[00:16:28] Travis Bader: It 

[00:16:28] Ian Sim: tells the state what they can not do. 

[00:16:31] Travis Bader: Right. 

[00:16:32] Ian Sim: And many of our rights, um, have been, um, developed and explored by minorities. In our community and by minorities, I don't mean like criminal law. Um, a lot of our criminal law, uh, has, has been developed by people being charged criminally and, and, and claiming a charter breach, uh, search and seizure, for example.

[00:17:02] Ian Sim: And, um, all your rights around a lawyer. 

[00:17:05] Travis Bader: Right. 

[00:17:05] Ian Sim: Um, so a lot of our rights, uh, are stab, not established, but, but explored and developed further fine tuned. Sure. Okay. Thank you. By criminals who, or people were charged with criminal offenses. 

[00:17:21] Travis Bader: Right. 

[00:17:21] Ian Sim: So, and, and they are minority in, in most societies. Um, other ones, LGBTQ.

[00:17:29] Ian Sim: Plus community, um, a minority, but you know, they are fighting for what they perceive to be their rights. 

[00:17:40] Travis Bader: Yes. 

[00:17:40] Ian Sim: So everyone in Canada can fight for what they perceive to be their rights. Now, if it's in the charter, helpful. It's in the Canadian bill of rights, helpful. It's in the UN declaration of human rights.

[00:17:53] Ian Sim: Helpful. Um, it might be in the Bible, helpful if other Western democracies have similar rights, um, Supreme court judges in Canada will look at similar systems. 

[00:18:08] Travis Bader: Sure. 

[00:18:09] Ian Sim: Um, including the United States, Britain, for sure, um, where our common law comes from, where American law comes from. Um, so, but at the end of the day, the Supreme Court can say, yes, section seven of the charter is the Supreme law of the land.

[00:18:29] Ian Sim: We agree it's the right of all rights without which, you know, all your rights, the rights are meaningless. And this young lady, the guide, the guide, Um, who got her authorization to carry for, um, to protect life in wilderness areas, a government could come down the road and say, none, you're done. And, and with the recent handgun freeze, whatever that means exactly.

[00:18:59] Ian Sim: Um, so. A new government could come in, they could take that away, they could expand on it. At the end of the day, the Supreme Court could say, they could say, Travis, section seven of the charter states security of person, you have the right to, uh, an authorization to carry, a civilian authorization to carry anywhere in Canada, including urban areas.

[00:19:30] Ian Sim: And the government of the day could go Notwithstanding clause, and it's done, crushed for five years. Right. So the system is not perfect. Rights,

[00:19:45] Ian Sim: some people think rights are kind of airy fairy left wing stuff. Um, they're for everyone. Um, if you can articulate to a judge that there's been a charter breach or, or an egregious breach of your rights under the charter, um, you may get your hearing in front of the Supreme court. Not you personally, I mean, it'll go to Supreme court, perhaps.

[00:20:08] Ian Sim: So rights work for everyone, but they don't work all the time for everything. Um, I, I talked to some of the, my friends in Northern Arizona in and around Gunset Ranch, right? If you had one right to choose from, would it be your right to carry second amendment, uh, or a woman's right to choose? Pick one. You get one.

[00:20:40] Ian Sim: Um, what's more important to you? Um, so a lot of people will claim they have rights. Um, sometimes we disagree on what those rights actually mean. But if you convince a judge and then the Supreme court justices, you've got your rights. And so let's say armored car guards, let's say we were going to expand armored car guards in Canada by 10, 000 guards in the next three years.

[00:21:17] Ian Sim: Um, it wouldn't make the news and they carry a handgun openly to protect life. Right. It wouldn't make news. It, even if you phone the news station, they'd be like, why is that news? If we, if someone came out, a government, uh, provincial or federal said, we're going to expand, um, the right authorization to carry for civilians.

[00:21:43] Ian Sim: By 10, 000 people in the next three years, that would be news. 

[00:21:49] Travis Bader: That would be everywhere. What one thing that goes through my head and actually there's a bunch of things going through my head, but, uh, I should probably have preempted all of this with this isn't legal advice and we're not lawyers and we don't speak for anybody other than ourselves.

[00:22:05] Travis Bader: These are our opinions that we're going to be going through here. So that kind of puts a big blanket over top of the conversation of, uh, of protection for everybody. 

[00:22:17] Ian Sim: Yes, obviously we're not lawyers. Um, but you'll see people in the Supreme Court of Canada, lawyers on both sides, arguing completely different arguments, like polar opposite.

[00:22:32] Ian Sim: You know, if anyone thinks they can predict how a Supreme Court case is going to go, I mean, I don't know. Best of luck. 

[00:22:38] Travis Bader: Right. Um, so. Friend of mine is a, uh, a very well accomplished lawyer, extremely intelligent. And he says, you've, you've got the perfect case and you go to Supreme court and you've got everything a hundred percent, uh, perfect on your side.

[00:22:55] Travis Bader: You've got about 70, 30 chance. 

[00:22:57] Ian Sim: And even if you win notwithstanding clause, Federal government can go, yeah, sorry, too bad. So

[00:23:06] Ian Sim: it's imperfect. It's more perfect than many systems around the world, but it's not perfect. And, and rights are like, so, you know, you will get people on both sides arguing that, um. Although armoured car guards carry a handgun all day long around Canada, no one cares. No one gives them a second look. You can't, or I can't carry 

[00:23:31] Travis Bader: off shift.

[00:23:34] Travis Bader: I think there's a really interesting piece of this, which I'm sure we'll talk about in a little bit, but an armoured car guard is not a peace officer. People see the uniform, they see the gun, and maybe they got an armored car guard badge and they say, well, this is a special person and armored car guard has the exact same responsibilities as a private citizen when they're carrying that firearm.

[00:23:56] Travis Bader: They just happened to be working in some industry where their primary activity is a transport of cash or negotiables. And they have a firearm there not to protect the cash, no, not to protect any of the negotiables as to protect their life or life of a third party from imminent danger of death or give us bodily harm.

[00:24:15] Travis Bader: And that's it. And as a private citizen, all of the same rules that apply to an armored car guard apply to a private citizen. 

[00:24:23] Ian Sim: So the standard to carry a handgun today by a private citizen. In British Columbia is the, the security legislation provincial, I believe 

[00:24:32] Travis Bader: for 

[00:24:33] Ian Sim: armoured car guards. 

[00:24:34] Travis Bader: That's right.

[00:24:34] Ian Sim: That's it. So again, and, and Canadians or British Columbians would have nothing to say if they said we're going to increase armoured car guards by 5, 000. Mm hmm. Um, but again, It's illogical. A lot of the arguments and, and I get it. Emotion is a thing. Uh, anxiety is a thing. Um, people may believe in what they're doing or promoting or saying, uh, good intentions, the whole bit, but you know, does it stand kind of the, just kind of the logic test?

[00:25:15] Ian Sim: Not really. Uh, in opposing a civilian ATC and they go, Oh, America, south of the border, rah, rah, rah, rah. Well, the vast majority of Canadians I've met don't understand Canadian firearms laws. They certainly don't understand, uh, firearms laws in other countries or in 48 different states south of the border.

[00:25:38] Ian Sim: They have an opinion as many people do. Um, it can be like many topics, an emotional one. Um, and again, I understand it. The, the, the, The mere thought of violence, um, can be distressing to people, just the thought, and they've, and perhaps they've never experienced violence. If you've experienced violence Um, as a victim or on the other side, um, it can be traumatic, very emotional, very stressful.

[00:26:17] Ian Sim: Um, so I, I get it. People get nervous when they think about their own safety. It's understandable, but we should, we shouldn't be using these cute one liners. Um, and, and, and we should help people understand the true pros and the true cons of any legislation, particularly public safety legislation.

[00:26:46] Ian Sim: Misleading Canadians. About public safety legislation, I have a problem with that. I've spent my whole career and much of my life in service to my community, particularly around community safety. 

[00:27:03] Travis Bader: I'm sure you've heard the, uh, the expression when seconds count, the police are only minutes away. And as a peace officer protecting others, you can't be there all the time for everybody.

[00:27:17] Travis Bader: And the one thing that I see that has taken a massive hit over the years seems to be the individual's sense of personal agency. There seems to be an abrogation, if I'm even using that word correctly to abrogate control or responsibility to a third party. And. The way that messages from media or government agencies will communicate that is no, no, no.

[00:27:47] Travis Bader: You hang tight. We'll help you. No, no, no. You don't, you don't take care of yourself. We've got a crew that's specially trained. That'll be there to take care of you, which is all well and good because there's people out there that need taken care of. And there's people out there that might not be the best advocate for themselves, but to Push that so far to the point where people feel they don't have that personal agency, where they can actually step up and do something positive to affect their life or their life of those they love that are around them, I think is doing people a massive disservice, not just at the individual level, but at the societal level everywhere.

[00:28:31] Ian Sim: Yeah. We've. Again, we've had it so good in Canada for so long, and we still have it good, although things are changing quickly.

[00:28:45] Ian Sim: I'm not going to be there. I'm not a first responder. I don't like the term. I've never liked the term. I won't be there probably when you need me. Initially, if someone is going to shoot up a school, a street, a coffee shop, um, and I'm sitting there in uniform, um, do my daily hydrational activities, uh, they're going to shoot me first and then get on with it.

[00:29:18] Travis Bader: Hmm. 

[00:29:19] Ian Sim: Or they're going to sit and they're going to wait till we leave and they're going to get on with it. It might come back another day if they're short for time. I don't know, but we're the second or the third of the fourth responders. Um, you and anyone around you, you're the first responder. You are your own first responder.

[00:29:43] Ian Sim: Now I've been seeing that for a long time. No one gives it much thought. Um, if you survive the initial incident, call us and we'll come running. Like we will move heaven and earth. To get to a crisis, uh, accident, violent. We will move heaven and earth to get there, but we won't be there in time for everyone.

[00:30:14] Ian Sim: We can't. Um, you know, it says, um, there's, they're saying, you know, you don't need guns because, um, we have police and, and we'll then, I guess you don't need fire extinguishers because we have firefighters. Right. And it's, I don't say it to be cute. It's, it's just, it seems to be pure, simple, clear logic. Um, we get there after the fact, and if you've called us, we'll do the best we can, but we won't be there in time.

[00:31:03] Ian Sim: You're, you're on your own for a period of time, and ideally that's a very short period of time. But it might be a bit longer than that. 

[00:31:18] Travis Bader: The one thing that I see from my perspective and what's been communicated to me by, by past students is this overwhelming fear, fear of getting in trouble, fear of, uh, what could happen if they stood up for themselves.

[00:31:33] Travis Bader: And I, I've always looked at that as an Odd fear. I mean, we can stick our head in the sand and pretend that nothing's going to happen. And statistically in the past, we got it pretty good here in Canada. Right. But at least be armed with the information so that if something went sideways, we have an idea as to what our constraints are, how we can act, what we can do to be able to protect ourselves and protect our loved ones and do so in a way where we're not losing our house afterwards.

[00:32:13] Ian Sim: So the, um, to protect life is in the criminal code, always has been, always will be. Um, you can use as much force as necessary to protect, uh, you and those under your care from death or grievous bodily harm. So first place to start's the criminal code. It, it, it's not gone away. You can defend yourself and your family and strangers.

[00:32:42] Ian Sim: Um. 

[00:32:44] Travis Bader: That would be the third party that they talk about. The 

[00:32:46] Ian Sim: third party. Um, so. Again, it, it, it's a thing. 

[00:32:52] Travis Bader: Mm-Hmm. 

[00:32:52] Ian Sim: It's codified. It's, it's in the law. 

[00:32:54] Travis Bader: Mm-Hmm. 

[00:32:55] Ian Sim: It's not going away. It never has. Uh, and, and again, remember, you're on your own for a little bit. Um, for us to get there, we have to get the call. So, you know, we're what's,

[00:33:21] Ian Sim: we're, we're, we're only a moment away from, uh, catastrophe. Like we we're, we're, we're. We're. You know, seconds away from a switch or a trigger, a knife, a car, um, and for us to get there, we need to get the call. So it's murder in progress and we might not know what's happening until we get the call. So Virginia Tech, a massacre, I think what 31 dead, nine minutes flat.

[00:34:06] Ian Sim: Sandy Hook, 28 dead, three to four minutes flat. We won't be there in time because we have to get the call. So there's a number of things that have to happen and that do happen before we get that call. And I kind of call it the death gap. I haven't given it too much thought. Well, I've given it a lot of thought, but just, I call it the death gap because the incident starts, people are dying and you can do a lot of damage in a very short period of time, as we've seen, uh, over the years.

[00:34:42] Ian Sim: I mean, I was, I was studying active shooters. Before the term active shooter existed. 

[00:34:48] Travis Bader: Right. Um, 

[00:34:49] Ian Sim: I don't know why. I'm just, my dad worked for the federal government. Fire protection. Industrial safety. It was always about safety, safety, safety, safety. So I just grew up safety. Safety, safety. Yep. Um, young boy interested in guns.

[00:35:03] Ian Sim: Neat, cool cops. So it's just a thing I followed, but. The incident starts, we don't know about it. Right. People are scrambling for their lives. People are dying. Um, eventually calls come in, I don't know, 30 seconds, a minute, maybe two minutes. Depends. Um, frantic calls, right? Uh, uh, the dispatchers are trying to find out what's happening, where you are, what's your address, what building are you in?

[00:35:33] Ian Sim: They may or may not know those answers. Mm hmm. Um, we're going to, we're going to start getting a dispatch, you know, shots fired somewhere, or it could be another tool that they use. Um, and, and when we have an idea of a location, roughly, we're going to start going, but we got to pull out, we got to get dispatchers have to dispatch us the call.

[00:35:59] Ian Sim: We have to pull over in the road, uh, throw on our, our hard plates, uh, get our gear ready quickly. Then we got to fight our way, maybe through rush hour traffic to get to a general location. 

[00:36:13] Travis Bader: Hmm. 

[00:36:13] Ian Sim: And if it's, um, if it's a university or college, huge campus, a rabbit's warren, um, do students even know what building they're in?

[00:36:24] Ian Sim: Do they know what room? And it can happen anywhere. So, I mean, again, we'll move heaven and earth to get there, but there's a line for us to get there. How do we, as with traditional police emergency response, Get there quicker. And I don't know that we can, partly because of the gap, partly because of our resourcing levels, partly because of the time that it's going to take us to get there through rush hour traffic.

[00:36:58] Ian Sim: So is that good enough or is there some way we can address and reduce that gap, but uniform policing aren't going to be the ones to do that.

[00:37:14] Travis Bader: It's that education piece. 

[00:37:15] Ian Sim: It's, it's a scary thought, 

[00:37:16] Travis Bader: right? 

[00:37:17] Ian Sim: Right. Like, I mean, I, I, I, Um, this is my profession. I spent my whole life, um, with community, doing community safety work. Right. Um, and then I, I, I presented classes. I teach a little bit, I've never stopped reading for 45 years. Um, I've been trained in, you know, active shooter, IR, indoor, outdoor, I'm a firearms instructor.

[00:37:40] Ian Sim: I was shooting down at, Jeff Cooper's, uh, Colonel Cooper's gun sit ranch in the eighties. Um, I kind of live and breathe this. Um, like I said, uh, Seb and, and, and other coworkers, you know, we've got a lot of different people all working towards. Community safety or, or what some might term public safety. And we all contribute in, in different ways.

[00:38:06] Ian Sim: But at the end of the day, when everything has failed, deterrence didn't work, detection didn't work, um, disruption didn't work. And these things will fail. We will never get them all. Um, what now? So it's kind of a scary thought for the public. They're like, Oh crap. Um, we are kind of on our own now, thankfully, the chances of these things happening, even in the states are statistically low and, and some will argue that, well, we can't have you carrying a handgun.

[00:38:45] Ian Sim: Uh, I can't even carry my service pistol off shift. I'm fully trained with specialty courses. 

[00:38:53] Travis Bader: You can, they have a, they have from, no, I'm no lawyer, but if you get permission from a supervisor has always been in there, I don't know what makes, let's say your supervisor, More important than somebody else's supervisor to say that you could protect your life, but somebody else can't.

[00:39:11] Travis Bader: That has always, uh, struck me as something that was included to help get law enforcement support for some of the, um, some of the bills and some of the laws that we're trying to be pushed through. 

[00:39:26] Ian Sim: So, um, there are police officers that carry off shift. 

[00:39:30] Travis Bader: Sure. 

[00:39:31] Ian Sim: Um, Some with permission, some without. 

[00:39:36] Travis Bader: The old saying, I'd rather be judged by 12 and carried by six, right?

[00:39:41] Ian Sim: But it's, it's too bad that the most professional people that you call to try and save your life, the lives of your family, your kids, people around you, um, could get into trouble, uh, professionally and possibly legally, uh, for carrying off shift. Uh, some carry, Um, because they're on call, um, a lot of, uh, police officers take their, uh, service pistols home because they're doing overtime on nights off, days off.

[00:40:10] Ian Sim: Um, some put it in the lock box and carry it home. Some, um, leave overtime shifts or go to overtime shifts wearing their uniform armed. Um, but generally, um, you know, you'll be hauled up in front of the boss and, and potentially phone a, uh, face a cop. Code of conduct investigation. If you're caught carrying off shift now, how are you going to get caught carrying off shift?

[00:40:38] Travis Bader: If you have to use it. 

[00:40:39] Ian Sim: Okay. So if, if, if you're a rockstar and you, and you use it well and you save lives, I'm quite sure the organization will, um, will embrace you with open arms. 

[00:40:48] Travis Bader: Right. 

[00:40:50] Ian Sim: If you make a mistake or get it wrong. Oh yeah. You're done now. And again, I should, I should say, uh, um, I am not speaking.

[00:40:59] Ian Sim: On behalf of the RCMP, I am here as a private citizen who's, you know, most of his life has been in and around public safety, community safety, personal safety. They're all different. So yeah, I'm not speaking on behalf of the organization. This is Ian's opinion, um, but based on 45 plus years of, of, um, academic schooling, uh, and, Being in the profession for a quarter of a century.

[00:41:33] Travis Bader: You know, my goal with the podcast that I did with Rachel was to normalize a process for something that is, is lawfully allowed. Uh, back in the day, uh, the national firearms association, I believe was set up by Dave Tomlinson, Dave Tomlinson. He's passed on now, but. Um, he was a clever fellow and he created a cheat sheet for getting an authorization to transport through your ATTs.

[00:42:01] Travis Bader: And in the ATT form, we would say things like from what times of the day will you be transporting a firearm? And, uh, what locations will you transport it to? And. Uh, what days of the week would you be transporting? And people would be like, well, you know, I only go to the range on the weekends and they fill it out and, and the range closes at six.

[00:42:21] Travis Bader: And so I should be home by seven. And so that's the time they fill it out. And what they ended up doing was if their car broke down or the things went late, they'd find themselves in contravention of the law based on this form. So Dave says, um, 24 hours a day, right? That's when you're going to be transporting it.

[00:42:40] Travis Bader: You want it for the maximum length of time, every day of the week, all approved gun clubs and ranges. And everybody started filling out their forms in that way to the point where the firearms program started issuing ATTs without anyone having to fill that out. It was just normal. Everyone knew, yep, here we go.

[00:42:56] Travis Bader: We do it. And it, I don't know why that didn't click on me sooner, but with the authorization to carry, uh, for wilderness and armored car guards and people working, uh, myself personally instructing people. And then my school Silvercore here instructing people who've got a hundred percent success rate. I thought if we template that.

[00:43:16] Travis Bader: And everyone who's qualified and working in these different areas, it makes it just as easy as those ATTs were in the past for people to go through. And I think going one step further, having conversations like this will normalize the concept of what the charter of rights and freedoms section seven says that we can do in both the individual's mind, as well as any authorizing body for let's say the RCMP firearms program.

[00:43:47] Travis Bader: If they're issuing an ATC for protection of personal life, which they have the ability to do. They have done in the past. And we've worked on, it was a gun store. And at the time there was threats being made to different stores and organized crime was saying, look, we're going to come in and do something.

[00:44:09] Travis Bader: And so people were rightfully. Uh, concerned. I think there was one on the island. Uh, there was a, I think it was a husband and wife that ended up, uh, getting shot at one of these gun stores. I'll have to find the exact details. One of the listeners will have it there. People are getting concerned about it.

[00:44:26] Travis Bader: Uh, firearms program says, okay, not a problem. You've met the training, you've done the training, the same kind of stuff an armor car would do. Guard guard would do. Yes, there is a threat out there and we've, we've been able to identify it. And, you know, at ABCD all the way as it went through, but there is one caveat in there and it said, if police protection is not adequate and the firearms program turned around and said to these individuals who are applying.

[00:44:54] Travis Bader: All you have to do is get a letter from the chief of the police in your area. And this time it was the Surrey area. So get the chief of police out in Surrey. Just write us a letter saying that police protection in Surrey is not adequate to protect you. And. Consequently, no police chief is going to sign that no one's going to say we can't protect you and they weren't issued it.

[00:45:17] Travis Bader: And I thought it was kind of a cheesy way for this system to work around being able to, um, issue people who are trained, qualified, had a threat, all the rest, um, by using policy to, to try and circumvent it. And my hope is by talking about these sorts of things, maybe it can normalize. The thought process of, okay, who are we to say that somebody else can't protect their own life, particularly if we've covered our butt, if we're issuing this, because they've met all of these different requirements.

[00:45:53] Ian Sim: I don't think, excuse me. I don't think, uh, you'll see that any day soon coming from Ottawa. 

[00:46:00] Travis Bader: No. 

[00:46:00] Ian Sim: However, um, if a province wanted to get, I was going to say, get creative, But, but I'd even get creative. Yeah. Okay. Alberta, Saskatchewan, Manitoba, uh, trifecta maybe. Um.

[00:46:17] Ian Sim: They have options. They manage, uh, create, amend, uh, provincial legislation for the security programs, which I believe are provincial. Yes. Like the armored car guards. So Alberta, Saskatchewan, Manitoba, for example. Could get together, um, maybe just to piss auto off, but, but more importantly, because again, you know, these cute one liners are just kind of back and forth.

[00:46:49] Travis Bader: Yeah. 

[00:46:50] Ian Sim: I'm interested in sound, I'm interested in compassionate. Common sense, middle of the road, public policy, that's it. And I've spent a good portion of my life, um, trying to advocate both within my organization, other organizations, um, the shooting community, um, for, for sound public safety policy. So Alberta, Alberta could choose, I guess, to say we are going to issue under the securities program, um, ATCs to not only our armored car guards, but to, um, qualified civilians.

[00:47:37] Travis Bader: And, 

[00:47:38] Ian Sim: and what do we want our armored car guards are, uh, and everyone else who carries guns in our society, because there's quite a few peace officers. Peace officer status, um, what do we require of them? Well, we want safe, competent, um, permit holders. Like it's not rocket science. 

[00:48:00] Travis Bader: Yeah. 

[00:48:00] Ian Sim: Um, Alberta could do that.

[00:48:03] Ian Sim: And there's probably nothing the federal government can do. Now, Alberta might go, Hmm, you know, and initially go, I'm not so sure. And that's fair. I mean, we get good policy by, uh, exploring our options. Sure. So Alberta could do it. Um, or any, or, you know, Um, but before we go to civilian 

[00:48:34] Travis Bader: ATC, 

[00:48:35] Ian Sim: which, um, if implemented, I guess, to the same standards of the armoured car guards, uh, it would be slightly different because it's concealed carry as opposed to open carry.

[00:48:44] Ian Sim: Um, why don't we look at the resources that we already have in this country, which are serving peace officers. 

[00:48:56] Travis Bader: Hmm. 

[00:48:57] Ian Sim: Why? So, I, I've, I, I termed something I came up with years ago, and I'm not the only one who's thought of this. Um, I call it the LLDA, the last line of defense Act. Hmm. And that would allow serving and honorably retired peace officers, the ability to carry off shift.

[00:49:19] Ian Sim: And I use the term off shift, not off duty. Um, under the R CM P Act, they onis 24 7. End of story. I have no problem with it. I will conduct myself. Um. To the appropriate standards. And, and in some cases, I think my standards are higher than the organizations. So we're, I've got ex military experience million years ago, but, uh, I'm a firearms instructor.

[00:49:46] Ian Sim: We're trained in active shooter. Indoor and outdoor response. Um, I requalify with, um, shotgun, carbine pistol every year. Mm hmm. Uh, I'm a firearms instructor. Um, I've had some covert training. Um, there are current police officers, peace officers with those skills everywhere. And there's people who were formerly on ERT, former air marshals, former military, They all have those skills.

[00:50:26] Ian Sim: So I think what we should be looking at in this, this, um, community or public safety crisis in our country is allowing serving peace officers, individual choice to carry off shift. But I've heard, I've heard from other cops. I don't trust my, some of my coworkers to carry off shift. Okay. Well, have you brought your concerns up to the supervisor that you don't trust them when they're working?

[00:50:56] Ian Sim: No, of course not. Right. Um, and you know, so we don't have anything to address what I call that death gap in a violent crisis. Like we've, we've changed a lot of laws in our country because of, um, mass casualty events, some cost a billion dollars, some which might cost a couple more billion on one incident alone.

[00:51:18] Ian Sim: Or two incidents or three. So clearly, um, there's an interest to try and reduce mass casualty events. Sure. Right. And it's bad enough with one person, let alone mass casualty events. We're already trained. We work in our communities. We know who's who in our communities. We know what to look for in our communities.

[00:51:48] Ian Sim: We get intelligence bulletins all the time. Um, and we've got all those specialists who go to work. Uh, two days, two nights, four off in our communities, it would cost taxpayers, nothing, nothing. And here's the thing is you'll get members, police officers saying, Oh, I don't trust my coworker. Okay. Well, you know, they carry every day at work anyways.

[00:52:14] Ian Sim: What's the problem. Um, and then they go, well, what about a blue on blue, you know, like. You know, an officer has a gun at a scene and they're on days off. Our plainclothes police officers go for coffee every morning. 

[00:52:29] Travis Bader: Yeah. You don't have problems there. 

[00:52:30] Ian Sim: They go for lunch every day. They go for afternoon coffee.

[00:52:35] Ian Sim: Most of them don't wear their vests, their soft body armor. Most of them take a, don't take a radio with them, they just go. No problems. A number of police officers carry their guns to and from home. Um, on their hip, either in uniform, some will just take their gun in, in a plain clothes holster and go home to, because they're on call, they work special units, uh, and some will lock it up in the lockbox.

[00:52:59] Ian Sim: Really no problems, right? So this is a worst case scenario. Um, a violent crisis, um, which the governments have spent millions, if not over a billion on having the LLDA, as I call it, off shift carry, um, cost taxpayers absolutely nothing. And it's the exact same people you're calling in an emergency to come and save your life.

[00:53:26] Travis Bader: I think it makes a lot of sense. I mean, it also, it's kind of like the Switzerland approach where everyone gets mandatory conscription, mandatory training, and then they're sent home with a firearm. And I think in Switzerland, they lock them up, but if they need them, there they are. They're ready because they realize that having properly trained individuals out there who can be mobilized at a moment's notice is way better than trying to centralize all of this and, and react.

[00:53:52] Travis Bader: And it's also got the other effect on things too. Um, who, who is this off duty officer? I don't know. I'm in a crowd. I'm in a public place. I'm at a political event, like what recently happened here in the States and. With, with Trump, uh, who's the individual who's caring and who isn't like there is that saying an armed society is a polite society.

[00:54:14] Travis Bader: And I've had people from, uh, the UN say, no, you have no idea what we've seen in different third world countries. And, and, uh, definitely an armed society is not a, it's not a polite society. But the idea that maybe, maybe Mike Tyson's approach, right? Where he talks about everyone's gotten way too comfortable, uh, mouthing off at others.

[00:54:38] Travis Bader: They haven't got smacked in the face. If you are somebody who's up to no good, but there is a threat of getting smacked in the face, well, maybe you'll hold your mouth a little bit. Maybe you'll decide not to do something, or maybe you'll, you'll hold,

[00:55:01] Ian Sim: Well, the deterrence effect, um, there's also, you know, in the big picture, mutually assured destruction, Matt. Um, we have, so people who object to, um, civilian ATC or what they call CCW in the States, concealed carry weapon, um, again, Canadians don't know what, Really our Canadian firearms laws are. 

[00:55:25] Travis Bader: Right. 

[00:55:25] Ian Sim: Very few of them don't know what, um, the different concealed carry laws are in various states, south of the border.

[00:55:33] Ian Sim: They don't know what they are in Brazil, Czech Republic. Like they don't know. They just don't know. I've heard bad things about the States. I see the stuff on the TV. It's no good. You're getting a skewed view from, from that, because, you know, we all know in journalism, if it bleeds, it leads, it's going to hit.

[00:55:52] Ian Sim: I mean, I've seen, uh, outrage. There

[00:55:57] Ian Sim: was a politician a couple of years ago that said, you know, um, with all the sad face and everything, 15 to take down a deer. Well, most Canadians would just nod their head and go, yeah, true story. Well, they were prohibited. You were never allowed to hunt deer with AR 15. So I would suggest they misled the Canadian public, right?

[00:56:21] Ian Sim: Yes. And I saw a CBC, um, documentary, a short one on, uh, military style rifles. And they finished the segment with a gentleman at range putting a fully loaded 30. Round magazine into the rifle, cocking it and firing the whole 30 round magazine on full auto. Okay, well, we've had five round restrictions for magazines for centerfire rifles for years.

[00:56:53] Ian Sim: Mm hmm. And fully automatic weapons were, I think, banned in Canada in 74, maybe. Everyone who had machine guns in 74, full automatic weapons, were allowed to keep them. Their grandfather. 

[00:57:05] Travis Bader: Right. How many full auto shootings do you hear about? I've never heard of one ever. Right. Yeah. They're still in the safes of all these people who've had them.

[00:57:11] Ian Sim: So again, we're talking a worst case scenario. People are, I get people are anxious about the concept of, um, peace officers carrying off shift. Or even civilians, but what we need to look at and, and we should is, um, you know, do you know anything about CCW concealed carry programs in the United States? 

[00:57:33] Travis Bader: I've done some training down there.

[00:57:35] Travis Bader: Yes. 

[00:57:35] Ian Sim: Right. So most, most Canadians don't have a clue. Most police officers, peace officers don't have a clue, 

[00:57:41] Travis Bader: right? I think it was Utah have got a CCW permit for them because they had reciprocity with other States and, Um, but, but there's training, there's training that people have to get in order to get these.

[00:57:53] Travis Bader: And the biggest part about that training is don't use your gun, right? Essentially don't be pulling that gun out unless your life or life of third party is in danger and you can qualify that. 

[00:58:04] Ian Sim: And they have different, so different states have different rules. 

[00:58:08] Travis Bader: Yes. 

[00:58:08] Ian Sim: Uh, some have very little training.

[00:58:11] Ian Sim: Constitutional carry states. Right. It's in the constitution. Here's your gun. You can carry. Not a fan. I'm not a fan of open carry. I carried openly in Arizona as a young lad, creepy feeling, really weird for about 30 minutes, and then you just got on with your day. Right. Um, but really weird to start with.

[00:58:34] Ian Sim: I'm not a fan of open carry. Um, I am a fan of compassionate, common sense, middle of the road, public policy. Um, we already have a Canadians Fire and Safety course. We have pretty good legislation around wilderness carry to protect life. Sure. Uh, most police services and, and other services that, that carry guns, um, have good provincial and federal standards.

[00:59:05] Ian Sim: Having, allowing peace officers currently serving the choice to carry off shift, uh, enhances, um, no, it's not perfect. Okay. There, there's nothing perfect. We have cars, untold carnage with cars, untold carnage with cigarettes, untold carnage with fast food, like, but what we're talking about, how to address a worst case scenario, murder in progress, a potential mass casualty event.

[00:59:36] Ian Sim: And I'm telling you right now, we can't respond any faster than. It takes to go through all those steps and that gap, by the time dispatch gets the call, dispatches it properly, accurately, um, we gear up. Roadside, and again, we will move heaven and earth to get there as quickly as we can. A whole bunch of people are dead and we've seen it all around the world.

[01:00:02] Ian Sim: This isn't just an American thing. It's not just a North American thing. So I think the LLDA, as I call it, um, is the answer. I know some people, um, will be uncomfortable with it. We should try and, um, um, alleviate their fears by just giving them the facts. We don't have to make anything up. We don't have to sugar coat anything.

[01:00:26] Ian Sim: There's enough people out there that, that are, you know, don't suffer from anxiety or, or super anti gun or any number of things, or just people with good intentions. Sure. Um, Ottawa is never going to go for it. We know that. Province of Alberta. For example, could say, we want our peace officers in the province of Alberta to have the individual choice carry off shift.

[01:00:54] Ian Sim: Maybe there's a one day course for plain clothes, peace officers. There isn't now, you know, I see people in plain clothes, uh, what, what the public might call undercover just means plain clothes, out of uniform, undercovers a separate type of uniform. Specialized job description, but, and they're carrying, uh, holsters that, that are, are clearly like, you're carrying a gun, dude.

[01:01:19] Ian Sim: Like, hello. 

[01:01:21] Travis Bader: Well, you're looking, most people aren't that observant, but yes. 

[01:01:25] Ian Sim: So, and yeah, I mean, I, so I'm, I'm, um, covert operations or low viz operations, um, usually your biggest, uh, first safety, um, mechanism layer. Is the fact you're covert, that they can't see you're carrying a gun. And I've seen people on surveillance and I'm like, Ooh, we need to do something with, uh, your gun belt, your holster, uh, your clothing.

[01:01:57] Ian Sim: Um, we can do a much better job because some of the people that we're following, uh, during the, I was going to say current gang war, uh, but it's been going on for decades. If they think you're carrying a gun, they And not all of us are nice, clean cut, clean shaven, like you look like a gangster. 

[01:02:18] Travis Bader: Right. 

[01:02:18] Ian Sim: I would be afraid of you if you were walking, you know, behind me on the street.

[01:02:24] Ian Sim: So, um, you know, we need, we can carry, um, we can do a much better job. Internally, with our day to day operations, it's a no brainer for Alberta, or any province, to address, and it's not just current public safety, community safety issues in the last, let's say decade, um, decade or so. Thank you. The LLDA, last line of defense act is, is really, I think the best solution it's, it's both counter terrorism legislation, but at the end of the day, it's just public safety legislation and there's nothing that can touch it.

[01:03:05] Ian Sim: Um, people may oppose it, uh, for any number of reasons, which I've discussed, including some police officers or peace officers. 

[01:03:13] Travis Bader: Sure. 

[01:03:15] Ian Sim: But do you have anything better to address that gap? And in 61 years on this planet, I haven't heard it. I haven't heard a better suggestion. It's not perfect. Um, human conflict isn't perfect.

[01:03:36] Travis Bader: No. 

[01:03:37] Ian Sim: Um, a violent crisis or any crisis isn't perfect. You do the best you can. I think this is the best we could do. Alberta is going to say we want our peace officers. To have the individual choice to carry off shift. The RCMP would likely say, not in your life. I don't know. Maybe Alberta says, well, we'll, we'll take that into consideration when we renew your contract.

[01:03:59] Travis Bader: Right. 

[01:04:00] Ian Sim: But they could say to Edmonton, Calgary, Lethbridge, whatever. This is what we want. And I think they would go with it. Um, they could try and just, they should discuss it. They should bring up any concerns they have, questions they have. But at the end of the day, we're all caring on duty anyways. And obviously Albert has got some leverage in terms of budgeting, um, any number of things, but we can't address what I call the death gap today.

[01:04:36] Ian Sim: And I can't see, I mean, what are we going to double police officers in the street? We can't even get enough police officers to get us to where we were when I started 25 years ago. And things are getting worse. Populations growing problems are like things evolve sometimes better, sometimes worse. So we've got a community safety.

[01:04:53] Ian Sim: Problem in this country, I'm focusing narrowly on mass casualty events, but, um, you know, the odds of people say, well, what are the chances of, of you needing your, your service pistol off shift? What are the chances? What are the odds? Right. It's not about the odds. It's the stakes. It's life or death. It couldn't be more important.

[01:05:21] Ian Sim: It couldn't be a worst case scenario. So it's not the odds of it happening. It's the stakes. 

[01:05:28] Travis Bader: Yeah, I have people ask me, what are the odds of me getting in a car accident? Well, I spent a long time since I've been in one. I'd have to say the odds are pretty low. So why do I wear a seatbelt? Because the stakes of not wearing it and getting into a car accident are going to be way worse.

[01:05:46] Travis Bader: So I, I like that last line of defense act suggestion. I like it because you're already starting with people who are trained and it creates a palatable path forward for any government to say, well, it's okay because they've been trained before. We trusted them before. There's no reason not to trust them now.

[01:06:07] Travis Bader: Oh, and look at this special course that we've now put them on. And so we've, we've done our due diligence. We've covered her butt, but, uh, you know, These, this would be for retired peace officers. So it could be for. 

[01:06:21] Ian Sim: Yeah. So I would include in the legislation, um, retire, honorably retired peace officers who have retired within the last, um, I don't know, maybe, maybe it would have to start from today, right?

[01:06:39] Ian Sim: If you're honorably retired, you're good. Maybe if you've been out for three to five years, you're still good, but you're gonna have to re qualify. We will carry our service pistols, um, that we carry every day. Now, uh, if, if your department doesn't allow you to carry. Right. Let's say Alberta does it. And there's, there's some, uh, departments or, or, or police services that say no way.

[01:07:06] Ian Sim: Can Alberta say, well, okay, you can't carry your department's equipment. We get it. It's their equipment, but we're going to allow you to carry off shift with your equipment. You will still have to pass your department's AFQ, annual firearms qualification. Uh, at your own cost on days off, but you do your department's course of fire with your own handgun, you can carry too.

[01:07:43] Ian Sim: So your department says, no, it's their, it's our equipment. I get it. And it's, it's makes sense if, I mean, they own it and you know, we're very risk averse these days, so that's part of the problem. Um, maybe there's. Uh, a way to come around that, get around that. Um, you're honorably retired. Um, you're going to have to pay for your own and you're going to have to qualify on the provincial standard, which is armored car guards.

[01:08:15] Travis Bader: I think that bears some discussion too, because there's going to be people who are listening to this Who would say, well, why is one person's life, uh, valued higher? Why is a peace officer able to do it and not me or whatever it might be. And I think the reality is one person's life isn't, we're not saying one person's life is valued higher.

[01:08:38] Travis Bader: From my perspective, this is a path forward that's easily palatable for a political party to be able to say, okay, we can get behind this. There's going to be those who are out there who say, I'd rather be judged by 12 and carried by six. And if I believe that my life is in danger, then I'm going to take, whether that's a firearm or not, I'm going to take steps to be able to protect myself and my family.

[01:09:01] Travis Bader: And for these people, not that I'm advocating one way or the other, I'm But it would be probably important for them to understand what those rights are for a private citizen. And they're the exact same as what an armored car guard would do. And for an armored car guard, they're trained on some tactical communication.

[01:09:25] Travis Bader: I mean, it's a week long course, really, uh, some places shorter, it's really short things. So empty hand defense, they're trained on some scenario training, some legal studies, some firearms work, and their use of force model is different from what you would see for a law enforcement officer and law enforcement officer training.

[01:09:44] Travis Bader: Does not have a big old disengage all around it because that's their job to actively go there and engage. If there's a less violent means available, the private citizen has to take it. If there's a less violent means available that they can save their life or life of a third party and a reasonable and prudent individual, what is, what do they call it?

[01:10:06] Travis Bader: The reasonable man doctrine or something like this. Um, somebody with the same life experience and the same situation or same or similar situation would reasonably come to the same conclusion. If there is a less violent means available, you have to take it. But if there is no less violent means available.

[01:10:25] Travis Bader: You are justified in using as much force as necessary in order to stop the threat. And that doesn't mean if the person pulls a knife, you pull a knife, the person pulls a gun, you pull a gun to stop the threat. You're not matching the threat, you're going one step above so that you can stop it. It's not a battle of who's got the better cardio and who's got the better fitness.

[01:10:48] Travis Bader: And. Then I guess there's probably some discussion about the before, the during, and the after, which would be important for people to know about, but I'll just kind of get the conversation, maybe rolling on that one a little bit. Do you have thoughts on that? The 

[01:11:09] Ian Sim: bottom book right there is the before, during, and after.

[01:11:15] Ian Sim: I, so it's, it's, it's an, um, it, it's written, um, in the United States for, uh, primarily civilians with concealed carry permits. It's Masada, you needs no introduction to anyone who's, um, familiar with, uh, defensive firearms use in, in, he's been around for decades. Um, I, excuse me, I feel that book, um, is mandatory reading for anyone who, Hasn't a serious interest in anything related to self defense.

[01:11:51] Ian Sim: That book is not about tactics and techniques. There's lots of other shooting schools and books that will do that. That is the before, during and after. And I think anyone who carries, uh, um, uh, firearm professionally in this country should own that book. 

[01:12:09] Travis Bader: It's called Deadly Force. Uh, understanding your rights to self defense.

[01:12:13] Ian Sim: And again, uh, self defense is self defense. Um, human combat is human combat. Um, it's, and, and our laws are very similar to many in the States, but again, it, it's highly relevant to Canada. So if you're interested in self defense, that's one of the best books. And I I've, I've read nonstop since I was, you know, 12.

[01:12:36] Ian Sim: Um, anyone who cares a firearm professionally in this country should have that book. I think crown counsel and prosecutors should have that book, defense counsel should have it, homicide investigators should have it, use of force instructors should have it, police union should have it, the IIO, SIU, uh, units and organizations that investigate police use of force.

[01:13:00] Ian Sim: They should have it. It's the best book that I found, whether you're allowed to carry a gun or not. And for all those other groups, I just talked to a crown council for Alberta and BC recently, dealing with the firearms crowns. 

[01:13:16] Travis Bader: Yeah. 

[01:13:17] Ian Sim: Um. 

[01:13:18] Travis Bader: Is that Todd? 

[01:13:19] Ian Sim: Uh, no, it was, it was, um, a woman from BC and another gentleman from Alberta.

[01:13:26] Ian Sim: Yeah. Um, and they were very interested and, and the other book, of course, um, They're interested as well. Uh, so I will be sending one copy of this book, uh, published by Harvard university, uh, to both of them and, uh, Deadly Force is available on Amazon. 

[01:13:45] Travis Bader: So the other one you have is To Keep and Bear Arms by Joyce Lee Malcolm.

[01:13:49] Ian Sim: Yeah. And published by Harvard university. She's a history professor and she's just written on English common law around firearms from the English bill of rights in 1689, I think, uh, up until the early 1900s. So, um, I think anyone who owns a firearm Should own to keep and bear arms. I think every gun store in the country should have to keep and bear arms It should be in all 24 law schools in the country.

[01:14:21] Ian Sim: I know it's at UBC at the law school there already You 

[01:14:25] Travis Bader: put it there. 

[01:14:25] Ian Sim: I did not. No. I was going to, um, because I'm actually working on donating these books at my own costs to, you know, Crown Council, um, Parliamentary Library in Ottawa, 24 Law School. So that saved me a couple of bucks. Um. Not bad. The, uh, we have it already.

[01:14:43] Travis Bader: Okay. 

[01:14:44] Ian Sim: So, and, and that's English common law, which is the foundation of our legal system, the American legal system. The Americans got the second amendment from the British. Okay. Now the British have lost all their firearms rights for the most part, in kind of weird ways. Yeah. Um. They can have suppressors.

[01:15:00] Ian Sim: We can't have 

[01:15:00] Travis Bader: suppressors. 

[01:15:01] Ian Sim: Well, I mean, the gun hating British and they're not gun hating, but, but you know, something, the gun hating British, um, they were walking around with MP5s in Heathrow airport for decades. I know. Because of, uh, in the seventies, the eighties, terrorism campaigns, IRA, the whole bit. Um, you've got these old dudes running around the countryside and their tweed caps.

[01:15:20] Ian Sim: Um, my dad was from Scotland. I love tweed. 

[01:15:22] Travis Bader: Yeah. 

[01:15:22] Ian Sim: Um. Um, with their, you know, their hunting rifles with suppressors on them, what the public might call a silencer because, um, you know, the density population in Britain, um, guns make noises. They're not that loud, but they're concerned about disturbing, um, the, the neighborhood, the community.

[01:15:44] Ian Sim: And we've had ranges close in Canada on bylaws for noise. Right. They've closed the ranges down because of that. Well, the answer is suppressors. Suppressors were banned, I think in the seventies, 

[01:15:58] Travis Bader: silencers 

[01:15:58] Ian Sim: because of American movies. 

[01:16:00] Travis Bader: Right. 

[01:16:01] Ian Sim: So people kind of, their heads exploded and, and, and got all worried about, oh my God, suppressors, we have to ban them.

[01:16:08] Ian Sim: Like the martial arts movies in the seventies, throwing stars, nunchucks, um, butterfly knives. 

[01:16:15] Travis Bader: Yeah. None of these are really super effective tools in most people's hands, but no, better prohibit them because we saw Bruce Lee and look at the damage he can do. 

[01:16:24] Ian Sim: Right. So again, sound policy, I don't know that sound policy.

[01:16:30] Ian Sim: Um, I, I mean, I, I like some of our firearms laws here. I like some of the firearms laws in the United States. I wish the United States, some States had more of our firearms laws. 

[01:16:43] Travis Bader: Hmm. 

[01:16:44] Ian Sim: But I wish we had some of theirs. Czech Republic does a good job. Like, so I'm just interested in what works. I I'm, I'm that kind of that sober second thought that calm, um, assessment, uh, I'm not going to get all wound up either way.

[01:17:04] Ian Sim: Uh, I'm, I'm not going to get too swayed by the left, the right, or anything else. Um, public safety, um, isn't something to be messed with, shouldn't be misleading people, you shouldn't be lying to them. There's ways of addressing public safety in Canada, particularly for mass casualty events. Um, again, like the LLDA that is going to cost taxpayers nothing.

[01:17:32] Ian Sim: Provinces could implement it. Um, and you know, I don't know, we've got nothing else in its place. So why would you, you know, look for reasons to oppose this? When you have nothing concrete, you have no viable option

[01:17:55] Ian Sim: in its place. So it's like the kid, it's like the, the, the, the students I made at university or down on rec beach when I used to work there, I've since moved on, but you know, I get it. You're mad, you're yelling. Do you have any suggestions for me as a police officer? Do you know any country that's doing a better job?

[01:18:15] Ian Sim: Do you know any police officer or police services doing a better job? What we're looking for at the end of the day is to improve what we do for Canadians. And ideally, uh, without spending tons of money, it's going to cost money. I get it. 

[01:18:28] Travis Bader: But the 

[01:18:29] Ian Sim: LLDA cost taxpayers, nothing. And there's nothing that anyone has to address that death gap, as I call it.

[01:18:37] Travis Bader: I think we should probably let the listeners who aren't aware of what RecBeach is, what RecBeach is. So if people haven't been there, I'll let you explain what RecBeach is, unless you wanted me to take the lead on that. So 

[01:18:48] Ian Sim: RecBeach. Beach is, uh, maybe the oldest clothing optional beach in the country. 

[01:18:55] Travis Bader: And 

[01:18:55] Ian Sim: I believe this year or last year, it won best nude beach in the world.

[01:19:01] Ian Sim: So, you know, there's a couple of people down on Rett Beach. It's at Pacific Spirit Park out by UBC, University of British Columbia. Um, it's down 500 steps. To the beach, it's a beautiful beach location is spectacular. Um, but it's always been kind of hippie beach. I mean, there's people down there that were probably at Haight Ashbury in 69.

[01:19:27] Ian Sim: Right. Like for real. Right. Um, not many, but. So, um, it, it attracts a, um, colourful clientele. Uh, there's, there's a bit of a myth, an urban myth, I would suggest that it's sex drugs and rock and roll and anything goes. That's not the case, but it's a unique place. We used to be quite confrontational with law enforcement, um, decade and a half, a bit more ago.

[01:19:56] Ian Sim: Um, they didn't like us. Apparently we didn't like them. Uh, that's been turned around nicely. Um, the beach and, and policing, uh, and metro parks that runs the park itself. Um, you know, policing has asked them, police yourselves or we'll do it for you. Um, and it's worked far better, uh, the confrontations, um, the animosity, like it's, it's really is.

[01:20:27] Ian Sim: It's not nearly as wild as it used to be. Um, a lot, a lot of international visitors go there not knowing it's clothing optional. A lot of students from the UBC, uh, go there and they're like, Oh, Okay, nude beach, we're from Europe. What's the big deal. Right. 

[01:20:44] Travis Bader: Right, right, right. Um, 

[01:20:45] Ian Sim: so yeah, it's, it's, uh, and you know, it's, it's a different place, but it's, it's, it's not as crazy and wild as it used to be.

[01:20:55] Ian Sim: There's more, um, you know, more single females say I'm comfortable coming here now. Young families, we wouldn't come here in the past. Um, It's becoming a little bit mainstream, much to the displeasure of some of the. 

[01:21:10] Travis Bader: The 

[01:21:10] Ian Sim: lifers. Hippies. Yeah. Or the nudists. I mean, they're, they're naturalists, right? They're, they're natureists rather.

[01:21:16] Ian Sim: Natureists, 

[01:21:17] Travis Bader: there you go. There you 

[01:21:18] Ian Sim: go. They call people who wear their, their clothes and their bathing suits on the beach, they call them textiles. Um, about, I don't know, 30 percent are unclothed. 

[01:21:28] Travis Bader: Do they do that in a derogatory way? The textiles? Yeah, they kind of, textiles, right? So it's. Spectators, people coming down looking for a show.

[01:21:35] Travis Bader: Hey, 

[01:21:36] Ian Sim: I did foot patrols on rec beach last weekend. Um, I, I, you know, I, I was running the beach there for, for quite a few years. Um, I maintained a good, respectful working relationship on the beach. That beach that I call an alien planet on an alien planet during COVID black lives matter. Um, you know, as, as, like I said, as someone called me, uh, an old white colonial settler cop.

[01:22:06] Ian Sim: So, um, if we can maintain that type of relationship there during those recent times, we can do it anywhere in the country. We just got to get out of our cars, put the right people in the right places. On the street, on foot, or on bikes. And we can kind of get back to basics, which I think is what community safety and public safety in this country needs.

[01:22:36] Ian Sim: I just think the country needs it. 

[01:22:38] Travis Bader: I, yeah, I think an understanding of what those basics are and where this podcast can hopefully go. Like when we understand what our charter rights are, what a, what is acceptable in the courts, because the courts, the laws don't tell you what you can do really, they tell you kind of what you can't do.

[01:22:56] Travis Bader: And then the courts will come in and they'll say, okay, you were right or wrong. And in, in how you applied that, um, for individuals who are looking to, um, Or put into a situation where they might have to use deadly force. I would highly suggest a look at the armor car guard model. Um, you're right. Uh, my understanding is the same as yours.

[01:23:20] Travis Bader: I shouldn't say you're right. My understanding is the same as yours in so far as we have a federal model for, um, training for the armor car guards, but it's administered provincially, just like ATT's geographical extent is administered Provincially, uh, authorization to carry is the same sort of way. You can have these certifications transferred from one province to the other.

[01:23:45] Travis Bader: You can have them if, if firearms officers on BC and Alberta say, Oh, you're, you're going to be in between these two places. Not a problem. I've done work with other businesses. There's a fellow on the island. I'm trying to remember the name. Um, the name of his business, but he was robbed. He had a jewelry store and, um, ended up, uh, using deadly force.

[01:24:07] Travis Bader: He had a gun, he was a sports shooter and he had a gun that he, I mean, he's got a jewelry store or what better, what safer place to store his firearm as well. Everything was legally kept. And anyways, that went before the courts. He came back and, Ended up getting himself certified to be able to carry based on the fact that there is a threat on the store.

[01:24:26] Travis Bader: But I think they worked at not so much in, uh, the protection of life area. It was more in the cash or negotiables area. If your primary activity is, I think they looked more sort of the armored car route. I know in BC here, we've had other, uh, jewelry stores that have, um, started to open up under the security programs division of BC.

[01:24:51] Travis Bader: Option for an armed presence, whether that be jewelry store owners, uh, or having armed security at their locations. So there are conversations that have been started over the years. Um, individuals looking at this would know that they'd have to look at through the firearms act regulations and the criminal code, they have to have an idea of what, um, Is justifiable in the, the big three that they, uh, Canada kind of stole.

[01:25:22] Travis Bader: I think it was Masada Yube was the one preaching it as well was weapon intent delivery system. Was that, was that a Yube thing? So 

[01:25:29] Ian Sim: I, I'm familiar with Masada Yube for decades, I've, I've, I never trained with him. Right. Um, and I've read one or two of his other books. 

[01:25:39] Travis Bader: Hmm. 

[01:25:40] Ian Sim: But it was decades ago. 

[01:25:41] Travis Bader: Okay. 

[01:25:42] Ian Sim: I've read this one, uh, I think three times now.

[01:25:46] Ian Sim: In the last two years, um, laws evolve Hmm. As do societies for better, for worse. Uh, self-defense laws is evolving in Canada, um, slowly. 

[01:26:01] Travis Bader: Hmm. 

[01:26:02] Ian Sim: Which is a good thing. We don't live in a war zone. 

[01:26:06] Travis Bader: Yeah. 

[01:26:06] Ian Sim: Um, the beauty of that book is, uh, deadly force is that the Americans have a far. Larger body of, um, knowledge and experience, um, with self defense law and our laws are very much the same.

[01:26:23] Ian Sim: Um, laws, I don't think laws prevent crime. I think, I think laws are used deal with crime. Sure. Because the vast majority of people are good people. Um, good people outnumber bad people by far. Hmm. Hmm. In, in everywhere in the world, um, and always will. 

[01:26:48] Travis Bader: And that's an awesome thing to hear from somebody who's spent the last 25 years in policing and sees the worst in society at times.

[01:26:55] Travis Bader: That's, that's a refreshing thing to hear. 

[01:26:57] Ian Sim: You know, I'm the eternal optimist. Uh, it's getting a little bit harder, um, the way the world is going. Um, I still like people. I wouldn't have lasted one season on a wrecked beach had I not liked people and had half a clue how to talk to them, um, or probably, you know, at a, what someone call a left coast university, um, As an old white colonial settler cop.

[01:27:27] Ian Sim: Like, I mean, what else have I got against me? Um,

[01:27:35] Ian Sim: are, are the discussion is changing around public safety in, in this country. Uh, the world seems to be slipping everywhere. 

[01:27:45] Travis Bader: You 

[01:27:45] Ian Sim: know, Europe kind of used to be the gold standard, not anymore. 

[01:27:47] Travis Bader: And, 

[01:27:50] Ian Sim: and what we talk about, what we call public safety, which is my mandate, public safety is community safety is comprised of two.

[01:28:01] Ian Sim: Essential pillars, you need both of them to have effective, enduring community safety. One of those pillars is one we're familiar with called public safety. That's the core mandate of governments at all levels, municipal, provincial, and federal.

[01:28:25] Ian Sim: The other one, personal safety, which is everyone's right. And if you choose your responsibility, um, I had a woman talk to me recently. She goes, you know, a woman's right to choose. Is how, when, and if to defend her life and the lives of her children. That's a woman's right to choose because if I'm not safe, I don't get to make any decisions on reproductive rights, my hijab, my necklace, my pin, who I love, like, and she's of course, right.

[01:29:10] Ian Sim: Um, and you know, I mean, so community safety relies on public safety and personal safety. You can ignore your own personal safety as many people do. That's fine. I mean, the first, the first rule of personal safety is usually in, you know, I'll talk about in university or college or even high school, put your phone away 

[01:29:31] Travis Bader: and 

[01:29:32] Ian Sim: you've lost half the class or more, right.

[01:29:34] Ian Sim: They're young, they're going to live forever. They're bulletproof. Nothing bad's ever going to happen. I get it. Right. But you know, owning a firearm, uh, doesn't make you safe. In and of itself, any more than owning a guitar, it makes you a musician. 

[01:29:50] Travis Bader: Right. 

[01:29:50] Ian Sim: Um. Good point. So, you know, there's the before, the during, the after, that's the beauty of, of Masada Yub's book, Deadly Force, uh, Amazon.

[01:30:02] Ian Sim: Um, the other book, Harvard University Press, a little bit harder to get.

[01:30:09] Ian Sim: You're already armed. Like people say, why did you become. Why do you want to become a cop? I said, well, I need a job where there's no math. So I went down the list of jobs that don't require any math. I went down, went down. I'm like, cop, no math plus gun, which is kind of mathematical, but I could figure it out.

[01:30:34] Ian Sim: And I'm like. I'm going to be one of those. Um, because they'll ask me in classes, because there's, there's people in high school, university, college, why do you become a cop? Because there's a good percentage there that are interested in a law enforcement career, some are lawyers and the whole bit, but I'm like, well, I wanted to live my life armed and they don't know what that means.

[01:30:58] Travis Bader: I've never heard somebody say that before. It's always, I want to help others. I like dealing with people, which are all parts of it, I'm sure. So, well, 

[01:31:08] Ian Sim: so again, I went, I don't know. Um, my dad worked for the federal government safety, safety, safety. I grew up watching war movies on Saturdays as a kid. 

[01:31:18] Travis Bader: Sure. 

[01:31:19] Ian Sim: Um, cop shows as a kid, firearms are kind of neat.

[01:31:22] Ian Sim: Yeah. Um, my dad taught me to, Shoot a pellet gun at a fair in his hometown in Scotland, when I was like 12. Um, dad knows how to shoot. Where'd you learn to shoot? Oh, it was in the army. My dad was in the army. How cool is that? Right. It was in the British army, you know, 46, 47. But, um,

[01:31:46] Ian Sim: you know, there's a lot of thought to go into, um, personal safety, but what, to get back to community safety, if you don't have one without the other, if you don't have personal safety and public safety. You don't have effective enduring community safety. We've never had personal safety in this country.

[01:32:08] Ian Sim: It's never talked about. It's in the criminal code. It always has been. It's in the charter, bill of rights, 1960 UN declaration of human rights, 1948. It's always been around, but we don't talk about it in Canada. And probably for, uh, uh, you know, um, a positive reason is that, you know, we live in a very, Or have lived in a very, again, um, stable country.

[01:32:36] Travis Bader: So you think that's the reason why you think it's because we haven't really had to talk about it because it's, things have been stable. Partly, 

[01:32:43] Ian Sim: partly the other, the other reason is, is, and you can really see it now there, there's an ideology out there that, um, you know, and maybe they're just using the United States as an excuse, you can pick many countries or societies that have terrible levels of violence.

[01:33:01] Ian Sim: We just pick the States because I guess we get their news, we get their TV. And really most Canadians don't know about firearms laws and crime in other countries, but they watch TV. They kind of catch, um, the bad news stories from South of the border. So that makes sense. But how good is government at doing anything?

[01:33:21] Ian Sim: You know, they're, they're okay, but, but, you know, you, you don't usually look at government and go, they're, they're rockstars. They're killing it. 

[01:33:27] Travis Bader: Um, 

[01:33:27] Ian Sim: so I don't know, what would you rate government's, um, record on public safety in this country in the last decade? Um, pretty low, but let's say government got it a hundred percent right, all levels, municipal, provincial, federal, not a chance.

[01:33:44] Ian Sim: But if we got public safety, a hundred percent, right, we're still missing a full 50%. Of what community safety needs for it to be effective and enduring. 

[01:33:58] Travis Bader: I see individual safety, personal safety. 

[01:34:01] Ian Sim: Again, and that's up to the individual. Um, you know, do I think we should, everyone should walk around with a handgun?

[01:34:06] Ian Sim: No. Constitutional carrier, there's a pistol. No. Right. I mean, most of us in shooting sports and on farms, um, absolutely want government restrictions on

[01:34:21] Travis Bader: Some people just suck at life and some people shouldn't be, shouldn't be, uh, have the same rights and freedoms as others. If they've demonstrated a past history, the best predictor of future performance is past performance. So I'm not one of these people who's ever been, everyone needs a gun in their hand.

[01:34:39] Travis Bader: Everyone's got a God given right. And I've gotten heat for that in the past, but, um, and, and just for those reasons that I've mentioned. Yeah, I agree with you. So 

[01:34:51] Ian Sim: that part is, and people say, well, you know, 25 years ago, 30 years ago, 40 years ago, our public spaces were safe. You were safe out in public. For the most part, it's, I get it.

[01:35:02] Ian Sim: It's changed considerably in the last decade plus, you know, it was never safe, was behind closed doors. So our public spaces were safe, er,

[01:35:21] Ian Sim: but it was never. Safe for women and girls behind closed doors. And it still isn't. And it's gotten worse. Epidemic of domestic violence, intimate partner violence. I mean, I kind of study violence, political violence, terrorism, gang violence, intimate partner violence, gender based, whatever. I don't know.

[01:35:42] Ian Sim: Violence is violence. I mean, there's some differences, but. 

[01:35:48] Travis Bader: I was reading something about COVID and that being one of the massive negative byproducts of the lockdowns were increased alcohol consumption and increased domestic violence. 

[01:36:01] Ian Sim: And I heard this from a few females whose husband's retired from policing recently.

[01:36:06] Ian Sim: He's home every day. I get it. And the feeling might be mutual. I don't know, but no true. Um, so an increase in intimate partner violence, gender based violence, domestic violence, you know, I still believe we're allowed to choose our own words, call it what you want. 

[01:36:27] Travis Bader: Hmm. 

[01:36:28] Ian Sim: So that's been a problem and it's still a problem.

[01:36:32] Ian Sim: It will always be a problem. I mean, ideally we, we, we, um, in the public safety, uh, profession do a better job of prevention, but once violence has happened, it's really too late. It's done. Um, If you survive it and the vast majority of people survive it. Sure. Um, and the vast majority of people survive all crimes.

[01:36:58] Ian Sim: But again, it's, it's, it's not, it's not the odds of it happening so much as, as stakes, violence changes people's lives. Just the thought of violence makes people very uncomfortable, particularly if you've experienced it or seen it. So you understand why people get, you know, Kind of emotional about, um, the concept of perhaps the LLDA 

[01:37:23] Travis Bader: or 

[01:37:23] Ian Sim: civilian ATC authorization to carry.

[01:37:26] Ian Sim: Um, and you'll get the emotions on both sides because the victims, um, who, you know, a female with her two young children who have moved up in the, up north to get away from her, her, her violent partner down here, she's got some very legitimate And emotional, um, stories, right. I mean, I've, um,

[01:37:52] Ian Sim: I've been, life is not safe.

[01:37:59] Ian Sim: Bad things happen. Good people every day in this country, big cities, small towns, and in the middle of nowhere, everywhere in between. 

[01:38:14] Travis Bader: And, 

[01:38:14] Ian Sim: and by bad things, I mean, you know, Terrible, horrific acts of violence. 

[01:38:22] Travis Bader: Um, 

[01:38:25] Ian Sim: and it's getting worse. 

[01:38:26] Travis Bader: And it's clear the impact that it has on people, it's clear the impact, the exposure to that violence is having on you right now.

[01:38:34] Travis Bader: It's, um, I think that's the impetus for the conversation for personal safety. 

[01:38:43] Ian Sim: Yeah. I, when I. Um, when I left my last posting in a four week period, posting the last, um, jurisdiction that I worked, um, we had my team, uh, three constables, uh, all on their first day. First posting out of 

[01:39:06] Travis Bader: depo 

[01:39:06] Ian Sim: and myself, we had four suicides and a homicide in a four week period.

[01:39:11] Ian Sim: Now that's an anomaly, but it happens. Um, it was my team's turn. It's just the way it worked out. So, um, uh, you know, the focus has to be on prevention, but you can't, or shouldn't deny it. So, you know, most people, everyone has the right to be safe, criminal codes as you can, the whole bit. Um, I, my position is, is you can't deny a law abiding adult Canadian the right for civilian ATC authorization to carry a handgun.

[01:40:00] Ian Sim: Except on a case by case basis. Um,

[01:40:08] Ian Sim: and, and there are shall issue permits States in the United States. And there are may issue permit States. We have, I guess, what's we call a may issue system. You can apply for a civilian authorization to carry, um, in the wilderness to protect life. They don't allow it in urban areas or anywhere else. Um, and they may issue you a permit.

[01:40:33] Ian Sim: Now, if you apply for a permit and you are, um, a retired, um, police officer, who's got all this training, um, you won't get it. Uh, you could be a, uh, a violence of, or a victim of domestic violence. You won't get it. You could be, so it's a may issue permit system. In reality, you're not going to get a civilian ATC.

[01:41:01] Ian Sim: It's a 

[01:41:01] Travis Bader: not issue system. It's a not issue system. 

[01:41:03] Ian Sim: So, and, and, In, in the United States and in other jurisdictions around the world, it's a, uh, shall issue permit system. You apply for civilian ATC. If you meet, uh, this list of requirements, which the government determines, they shall issue you your permit.

[01:41:27] Ian Sim: There's no discretion. That's constitutional. That would pass, I think, the charter test. The government can make the, um, can, we all want the government to restrict, again, firearms possession. End use, but they have to be relevant standards. You can't make a permit 10, 000 cause you want to deter people from having their permit.

[01:41:58] Ian Sim: Right. So they have to be relevant standards and what's the relevant standard in BC with the armoured cars guards do? 

[01:42:03] Travis Bader: Sure. 

[01:42:03] Ian Sim: That's it. We don't need to train everyone up to be, um, Navy SEAL, JTF, 

[01:42:10] Travis Bader: you 

[01:42:11] Ian Sim: know, guys from Hereford, like we don't, it has to be relevant standards and the standards will be lower. Then what I would have to do as a peace officer, because the requirements and the situations are different.

[01:42:22] Ian Sim: We want safe, competent, ATC permit holders. 

[01:42:28] Travis Bader: Have you ever heard of a civilian being issued an ATC for, or experienced that? Maybe, cause I've heard of it. Way back. Right. I've heard of, Judges, uh, working on cases and I'll put a big allegedly around here. Um, allegedly I've heard of judges who weren't issued permits, but would carry anyways, because, uh, there was a, uh, a threat on, um, on their life and their safety and figured they would rather live through it than 

[01:43:04] Ian Sim: not.

[01:43:05] Ian Sim: And, you know, it, it, it, it's too bad that you've got, um, peace officers that carry all day long on duty and aren't allowed to carry off shift and could face, um, internal sanctions, a code of conduct, uh, probably not criminal if you're carrying your service pistol. If you were carrying your personal pistol.

[01:43:30] Ian Sim: Probably not criminal again. I mean. Maybe not. 

[01:43:32] Travis Bader: We've seen examples of that. So, 

[01:43:34] Ian Sim: but it's too bad. Right. Um, that, that, that's where we're at. And as, um, community safety deteriorates worldwide, um, and, and we in, in traditional police emergency response, can't really address what I call that death gap. Now's the time.

[01:43:53] Ian Sim: Now it still would have been the right time 25 years ago. 

[01:43:56] Travis Bader: Um,

[01:44:01] Ian Sim: I think quick stats, United States defensive gun uses are at 1. 6 million. The number's probably a bit low. Murders, 19, 000 something. Let's just bump it up. So 20, 000, um, murders, um, not including suicides. 

[01:44:19] Travis Bader: So murder would be justifiable and not justifiable that just, would that be homicide? Or would that be.

[01:44:23] Travis Bader: Homicide. Okay. So 20, 

[01:44:24] Ian Sim: 000 homicides, 1. 6 million defensive gun uses. Homicides are probably a bit high, 1. 6 million defensive gun uses DGU, um, probably a bit low for obvious reasons. 

[01:44:37] Travis Bader: Great. 

[01:44:37] Ian Sim: Um, 87 percent plus of those defensive gun uses, the firearms never. Right. Right. Firearms, um, have a particularly effective, coercive effect.

[01:44:53] Ian Sim: They, um, they incentivize people to go in the opposite direction, stop what they're doing, surrender, and In the vast majority of cases. 

[01:45:07] Travis Bader: Stop, regroup, choose a more desirable course of action. 

[01:45:10] Ian Sim: And occasionally, um, buddy pushes it and it's on and, and they get themselves shot or whatever happens. Right. So, um,

[01:45:21] Ian Sim: what is, what is the most, so right now we've got the fire and freeze. Um, we used to have the reasons for shooting in Canada were hunting, shooting sports and collecting. Um, Um, the government has maintained that to protect life is not a reason to own a firearm. If you say that when you're getting your possession and acquisition license, you'll be denied the whole bit.

[01:45:44] Ian Sim: Absolute nonsense. Right. It's like saying, you know, the only time you can get a permit to have sex is to make babies, but that's it. Right. We're all going to cross our fingers behind our back and say, yep, it's only for, you know, and it's just madness. So that alone is, is, is a charter breach, right? Like section seven is the most, the most important reason to own a firearm is to protect life.

[01:46:09] Ian Sim: Number one, hunting second, sports shooting third, collecting. 

[01:46:16] Travis Bader: Sure. 

[01:46:17] Ian Sim: That's it. And, and we need to say that. And it doesn't mean we're, uh, it's, it's just stating the 

[01:46:28] Travis Bader: obvious. Cause people will do it. They'll get a firearm for protection of life, but they play the song and dance game of, Oh no, it's cause I want to collect her.

[01:46:36] Travis Bader: It's no, no. Cause I'm going to be a sports shooter. Oh, okay. What club do you belong to? Right. What range do you belong to? Oh, I got to show my range membership or my club membership. Otherwise they're not going to approve my license or they're not going to prove the transfer of firearm into my name. Okay.

[01:46:50] Travis Bader: Oh, here's the club I belong to. They've never gone there once. Tell them what they want to hear. Right. 

[01:46:55] Ian Sim: You're good. It's like filling any form out, make it as easy as possible. Now, obviously I recommend everyone tell the truth on, on government forms. 

[01:47:04] Travis Bader: Yes. 

[01:47:05] Ian Sim: But I mean, you know, you do an applications for jobs or any number of things, right?

[01:47:09] Ian Sim: Make it as easy as possible for them. To understand it 

[01:47:14] Travis Bader: and 

[01:47:14] Ian Sim: say, yes. So I'm not advocating anyone lying on their forms, but I know out of every firearms owner, I know to protect life is not for the most time. Uh, for most of them is not the primary reason they own that farm. For some it is. Sure. But for the majority, it's not, but it's a close second for most of them.

[01:47:36] Ian Sim: They all know that in a, um, civil strife, um, natural disaster, that,

[01:47:52] Ian Sim: that the firearm is part of emergency safety equipment, like food, Like water, fuel for your car. Like it's just a, a firearm is emergency safety equipment, it's other things. But to me, that's what it is first. It's a reactive defensive tool. And, you know, you know, so the government's going to say, no, handgun is, has no use.

[01:48:19] Ian Sim: Well, firearms have no use to protect life. Really? What does every country on the planet issue its government officials to do? For, to protect life, handguns, particularly handguns. Sure. Because you can have it with you, it's concealable. So, you know, it's, it's, it's, it's not just a bit of a stretch. It's, it's absolutely ridiculous.

[01:48:46] Ian Sim: It makes no sense when they come on and say, Oh yeah, there's, there's no, uh, handguns have no purpose. They're the most effective tool on the planet to protect life, particularly for those who are, uh, getting on in years, have some physical limitations and challenges. Females? 

[01:49:09] Travis Bader: What's that saying? God made man, Sam Colt made men equal.

[01:49:13] Travis Bader: Right. 

[01:49:14] Ian Sim: I mean, most of, most Canadians know a couple where the male outweighs the female by 100 pounds or more. She's 130, he's 230.

[01:49:29] Ian Sim: I, I follow domestic violence. Uh, I, like I said, in, in April, I was at a homicide and it was a domestic. 

[01:49:39] Travis Bader: Hmm. 

[01:49:40] Ian Sim: Um, men may use firearms to kill women on top of every other tool that they use, but no man needs a firearm to kill a woman for the most part, for the most part, right? Uh, some, some choose a firearm to kill a female, but it's the females.

[01:50:07] Ian Sim: Uh, because of, of the disparity of size and strength, uh, and, and just, we've got way more testosterone than they do. Um, we're, we're more aggressive. We just are. It's just the species. So, um, it's not, it's not men that suffer, um, uh, the most. Having a handgun freeze, it it's women. Now missing and murdered indigenous women and girls, domestic violence, intimate partner violence, the women are suffering here.

[01:50:38] Ian Sim: Um, the majority of women won't own firearms to protect themselves in Canada, just like the majority of firearms don't own firearms to protect themselves. 

[01:50:46] Travis Bader: Right. 

[01:50:47] Ian Sim: Um, But some do, and some could. 

[01:50:51] Travis Bader: I think normalizing the, why you're getting the firearm with the firearms program on the application is a good first step for people.

[01:51:00] Travis Bader: And the number of times I've dealt with the firearms program and they say, don't tell me that, tell me this, like, for example, I got a gun here. I need to register, right? You've got the system, you've got these rules. We've got to make sure it's registered up. Where'd you get the gun? Oh, we got it from ABCD, whatever the situation might be.

[01:51:20] Travis Bader: Just, just tell me you found it in your attic. They say, no, I'm not going to tell you that. Well, tell me this, look at Travis wink, wink, nudge, nudge. I'm doing this over the phone, but just tell me this, it'll go through easier. I'm like, I'm not going to lie to you about where I got this thing from. Right. I don't want to be playing that game.

[01:51:37] Travis Bader: And eventually it'll go through, but I, I've lost count of the number of times that I've been told to say certain things, cause it'll make their job easier to approve. They just want to help you. They're being a good person, but it doesn't, it doesn't help everybody else if we're not normalizing a process, which should be normal.

[01:51:57] Ian Sim: So talking about rights, um, You know, I'll have this discussion with some of the guys from Gunsight, Northern Arizona. Right. I mean, you know, a golf course is the deliberate and willful misuse of a rifle range. Well, maybe not in Southern Arizona, but Northern Arizona, maybe. Um, and they're like, ah, rights this, rights that, left wing, socialist, rah, rah, rah.

[01:52:17] Ian Sim: And I go, whoa. Rights are for everyone. Um, if you haven't figured out how to articulate your rights, that's not my problem, that's yours. Um, I'm sure that there is a hierarchy of rights, I haven't really researched it or studied it or whatever, but pretty sure security of person is at the top. Um, and you know, when I asked the gun site, some of the crew and who carried down the States, like, okay, well, if you could have only your choice, is it your second amendment choice or is it her, uh, right to choose?

[01:52:54] Ian Sim: Pick one, right. They all security of their person. And I'm like, so you could live with that. And they're like, and you know, the conversation gets heated, I get. 

[01:53:07] Travis Bader: Sure. Yeah. It can be really emotional. 

[01:53:09] Ian Sim: And that's okay. Like we should be having these discussions. I mean, ideally, You know, there's, there's certain people that shouldn't be at the table, right?

[01:53:18] Ian Sim: If, if anxiety and, and personal, um, health issues, it's hard to think rationally or, or offer, um, particularly positive contribution. Right. We can all agree on public safety. Um, again, what I call community safety. And if you need both, 

[01:53:41] Travis Bader: you 

[01:53:41] Ian Sim: need public safety, which is the role of government, and they don't do that good a job and we have our own limitations.

[01:53:48] Ian Sim: Um, and team Canada, which is that ball cap there, that's the intelligence services, the military, it's the doctors, the nurses, the paramedics, the police, corrections, like it's the courts, it's, it's team Canada is a big team. Um, but we're, most of us are old conservative bureaucracies, which aren't the most efficient at a lot of things.

[01:54:15] Ian Sim: So we need the personal safety and the And that's a right. The government, the government doesn't have to approve it. Canadians just have to

[01:54:29] Ian Sim: accept it. They have to do it. They have to take it. They have to do it. Rights aren't like oxygen. You know, we don't, I'm not going to walk out of here and be surrounded by my rights. 

[01:54:38] Travis Bader: Right. 

[01:54:39] Ian Sim: Rights need to be maintained. They need to be discussed. They need to be kind of on the shelf in a prominent location all the time.

[01:54:49] Ian Sim: You have to fight for your rights and I'm not some right wing or left wing, like I'm just, you know, um, we have rights. Charter's the Supreme law of Canada. They're not going away. The West kind of believes in rights. I get it. There's some cultures and religions that don't. Oh, well, it's not us. Our Supreme court's going to make decisions on a charter breach, a roadside or at a search warrant or whatever, based on our charter and our concept of rights and our English common law and our history.

[01:55:28] Ian Sim: Right. And most people that I talked to, um, Love Canada for that. Love the West. Uh, a lot of the Southern Hemisphere is trying to get to Europe. You know, colonial racist Europe, they're risking their lives and their family lives to get there because of rights, economic opportunities too, I get it. Sure. But, um, you know, again, when I, when I meet people from all over the world, UBC, and then now where I'm working currently, um, they're like, you guys are rock stars.

[01:56:03] Ian Sim: You guys are awesome. And, um, you know, I would see some of the students for their whole four year career, right. And they'd pop by the office when they were going back to. Zimbabwe or wherever they're going, you know, give you a wave. Thank you. Thank you. Like, it's not like that back home. So that's a lovely feeling.

[01:56:22] Ian Sim: Frustrated in my line of work, for sure. Um, um, the bucket can fill up after 25 years and, um, I kind of dealt with that recently. Um. You know, I'm, I'm the, I was the peer to peer counselor at my office, looking at my young teammates, going to these horrific calls, checking in, how you doing? Um, but looking as well as listening to their answers, because sometimes they don't match.

[01:56:57] Ian Sim: Um, you know, and I've got, I've got, I can refer them to where. They might need to call, um, go see someone the whole bit. And then, uh, I noticed some stuff at work one, one morning particular. Um, I got in my supervisor's vehicle. Uh, we went for coffee, went, parked it. Um, and then my buddy left country music on in the, in the truck.

[01:57:24] Ian Sim: I'm like, not your 

[01:57:27] Travis Bader: thing. 

[01:57:27] Ian Sim: I left it on. Yeah. And, and, and, you know, it was okay. Um, and this song came on and I find myself bawling by myself, having had coffee, good sleep, like, and I'm like, what just happened there? No idea what was going on. Just like, that's not normal. 

[01:57:50] Travis Bader: Cause. No, that is probably normal. That is normal for someone who's.

[01:57:55] Travis Bader: Same life experiences, same background, that experience is normal. And I think the problem that people have is saying the feeling that it's not normal, maybe feeling ashamed or whatever it might be, but it's not the normal that you want at the moment, but it's a normal that you have. And it's probably a real good indicator that there's, there's some steps that need to be taken.

[01:58:20] Ian Sim: A normal reaction to some very abnormal, sad, sadly, those, those incidents aren't abnormal. They happen every day to people in this country. But, you know, my nickname with some of my buddies is Spock. I don't do emotion, I'm demonstrative, and I'm like, that's not normal for me. Like, where did that come from?

[01:58:42] Ian Sim: So I'm like, Hmm. So I, I mean, I'm like, okay, that's weird. Let's just. You know, and what, what it turned out to be is, is we've had, we had a number of fatalities and, and there's a lot of kids obviously at university and, and, and, you know, we all have, our, our bucket sometimes is small, sometimes it's big, it can, it can overflow sooner than others.

[01:59:04] Ian Sim: We've all got different levels of resiliency, the whole bit, and I was pretty good. You know, 22 years, I'm like, oh, okay. I'm doing fine until I wasn't right. And so, you know, I kinda, okay, that's weird. Not sure what happened there. Let's just put it on the back burner and see what's going on. Right. And then, um, one or two other small things.

[01:59:31] Ian Sim: And you're like, and then, you know, yeah, you feel a tap on your shoulder and you turn around and, and there's that big black hooded figure with the scythe. Right. And you're like. I know you, right. And you're like, me? Like, I know who you are. Yeah. You know, I was looking for it in my team, but there are three, four, five years in, I'm 25 years.

[02:00:04] Ian Sim: And so I got more stuff in my bucket and maybe, maybe a bit of age, you know, nostalgic as we age. Um, so I'm like, okay, I know who you are now and I know what's going on now. Um, and I know right now you're kind of running the show, but now that I've recognized what's happening, operational stress, injury, PTSD, um, injuries, my goal is to manage you and then let's get you out of the picture altogether.

[02:00:46] Ian Sim: So it can be, if you don't recognize it early, it can be, I mean, recognizing it early is Obviously the best with anything, right. Um, you're not feeling well physically, mentally. So recognizing it early was good. Uh, knowing what to do as the peer to peer counsellor. Excellent. That's helpful, isn't it? So, and then, 

[02:01:10] Travis Bader: and then just getting on it.

[02:01:12] Travis Bader: Well, if you remember, Spock didn't lack emotion, Spock was just highly, um, contained. Disciplined. He was disciplined, highly contained and very logical in his approach. But didn't Spock also have, he was half Vulcan, half human, if I remember something right, or, but I do know that Spock actually did have emotion.

[02:01:36] Travis Bader: Cause I remember that, that eventually came out at some point and the real Trekkies, Trekkers, whatever, are probably going to, uh, eat me alive for that one. But. 

[02:01:45] Ian Sim: I didn't watch it too much. I kind of watch it a bit, but. I'm just going 

[02:01:48] Travis Bader: back to my memory bag. So I didn't watch it at all. 

[02:01:50] Ian Sim: Right. 

[02:01:51] Travis Bader: Yeah. 

[02:01:51] Ian Sim: So, I mean, that's just a nickname I got because I'm, I'm again, and you know, I did that psychological test, uh, for this human source development course we were doing.

[02:02:01] Ian Sim: And, and I came across, um, I, I scored what was a strong SI, so steady and influential, um, you know, not, not just even 

[02:02:13] Travis Bader: keeled, 

[02:02:14] Ian Sim: keep calm, carry on. So, um, it's been a bit of a interesting couple of years. Um, My psychologist gave me a good book, uh, which is a fantastic book. If you're just a student of human nature.

[02:02:29] Ian Sim: What's the book called? I don't know. I can't remember it, but I've got it at home and it's on my coffee table. Um, and it was like, and it was just from, from, uh, from a policing perspective, from a human interest, it was just so good. Um, and yeah, we, we, I, I've thrown in a few, um, cause I'm, I was always pretty good at self care, single guy, no kids.

[02:02:54] Ian Sim: I live alone. My, my family moved away when I was in high school. Um, and just, I got a few of them in Halifax, but I'm pretty good at self care cause it's only me. Um, I didn't really miss anything. In fact, I kind of caught it quickly. I just didn't know exactly right away what was going on, um, but it was on it pretty quick and yeah, um, positive coping strategies are way better than the maladaptive coping strategy.

[02:03:22] Travis Bader: Yeah. And, uh, maybe I'm going out on a limb here, but the fact that you reached out and you want to help other people with their own personal safety seems to be a strong, uh, strategy where you can, you Positively affect others moving forward. 

[02:03:39] Ian Sim: Safety takes many forms. Um,

[02:03:46] Ian Sim: we're already, so when I said I wanted to live my life armed, you know, when, when the kids asked me, why did you want to become a cop? Right. So you need a job with no math, wanted to live my life armed, but really, um, I'm just a believer in rule of law, fair play, mean people suck. You know, um, that's it. Um, life as hard enough as it is, uh, life can be horrific, um, way more than I think the public know.

[02:04:14] Ian Sim: Right. Like, I mean, I, I used to read, I think it was a bi weekly sex assault report of all the sex assaults, reported sex assaults in the lower mainland every two weeks. I just stopped reading them because it was so long, like there were so many. 

[02:04:31] Travis Bader: That's just the reported ones. And it's only 

[02:04:32] Ian Sim: three, four, 5 percent of all of them that are even reported.

[02:04:36] Ian Sim: Right. So I'm like, and I used to get, I used to get, um, uh, read it, this Mexican intelligence report from Mexico too. And I'm just like, Oh, I'm full of pictures. I'm like, no, no, no. I'm just, I know what's going on. Right. Um, but we're already armed, right. Um, we got eyes and ears and we've got instinct. So that will carry you if you're using those most of the way through life, but not all the way.

[02:05:09] Ian Sim: Right. Um, You know, if, if, if, if, if you ignore your eyes and your ears. In your spidey sense, your intuition, that gut feeling, or just straight up, there's something wrong here. The fact that you've got eyes, ears, cell phone, uh, or, or emergency safety equipment on your person. I mean, it's PPE, right? Personal protective equipment.

[02:05:33] Ian Sim: Um, but you have to be paying attention, right? So you have to be kind of, there's a number of prerequisites. You said the before, during and the after. And again, that's what this book, Deadly Force really goes into. It's, it's not really, Tactics or techniques, it's things to think about beforehand, um, during, and there's a number of case studies that a lot of people recognize from US media and then after, which is, is because.

[02:05:58] Ian Sim: Massive. You know, the outfit, the organization you work for, I'll give you a lawyer. Sure. Are you going to get a good lawyer? There's a lot of people in jail in the States because they had terrible lawyers. 

[02:06:08] Travis Bader: Mm. 

[02:06:09] Ian Sim: Um, so they've been through the good, the bad and the ugly, far more than we have up in this country.

[02:06:17] Ian Sim: So there's a wealth of experience in there. So I've recommended it to people who, um, don't own firearms. 

[02:06:25] Travis Bader: Well, Masada Yube has got some good stuff out there on YouTube as well. Uh, there, there's one, uh, there's actually two that I can think of. There's two really good videos that kind of deal with the after.

[02:06:39] Travis Bader: Uh, one is Basada Youb and he's talking about dealing with, um, a deadly force encounter, dealing with law enforcement afterwards, dealing with the courts. Uh, there's another one where there's a, um, I think he's a public defender in the States. And then he's got the, uh, a police officer who comes in after him and he says, look, I'm going to give you equal time to talk.

[02:07:02] Travis Bader: I'm going to save my piece. I'm going to talk really quickly so I can get this all out. I've got X amount of time. And then you've got X amount of time. And he is, his whole speech, the lawyer was Don't talk to the police. Right. And it's, it's an interesting one that I think everybody should read or sorry, everybody should watch and it's not, don't talk to the police because the police are out there to get you, the police are your friend.

[02:07:26] Travis Bader: If you're in a situation where you now are required to have to talk to the police, this lawyer outlines all the different ways that it can go sideways. Even if you're telling a hundred percent truth and you've got the best intentions, goes through all of the different reasons, then the police officer stands up and now it's his half hour to talk or his 10 minutes, whatever it was that his half time was.

[02:07:51] Travis Bader: And he says, all I can say is recapitulate what he said, because everything he said is true, nothing you can do is going to be able to help you in the moment afterwards. You're not going to explain away everything and have it all figured out. There are some things you can do that'll make it worse.

[02:08:08] Travis Bader: Definitely. So Masada Youb and the don't talk to the police video are very interesting after the fact ones, because if you are unfortunate enough to be involved. In a situation where you weren't able to avoid it ahead of time during the before or mitigate it or, um, cause it not to happen. And you found yourself in the during, and you're able to employ the stuff that you know, in order to be able to get out of it.

[02:08:38] Travis Bader: Alive, the after is the part that can really ruin most people. It can have the most negative effects after getting out of there because the system that they figure is there to protect them, they don't feel like that if they've done things wrong, if they've said the wrong things afterwards. 

[02:08:56] Ian Sim: Every lawyer in sales, when we put someone sales or even roadside where they get their call to the lawyer.

[02:09:01] Ian Sim: It says, don't talk to the police. We'll figure this out. You've had a traumatic experience. You're under the influence of drugs and or alcohol. You're having a mental health break. Like there's so many things like now is not the right time. And, you know, even with, we'll do our own debriefings, a more detailed debriefing, what, 72 hours down the road.

[02:09:24] Ian Sim: Once the dust has settled and our brain has stopped spinning and you know, we can process stuff. I mean, there's no shortage of research on the infallibility of eyewitnesses and all kinds of stuff like that, right? Memory the same. We have a far better understanding of memory when you're going to get your best, um, statement.

[02:09:44] Ian Sim: We as police officers have a duty to account. So we have to kind of say to investigators that day or night. Roughly what happened? Uh, I think some police forces now are, aren't even doing that. Uh, I don't know how that works. Mm-Hmm. But, um, you know, I, I think I owe it to, um, the public and I owe it to the organization to give a, a very brief description as to what happened 

[02:10:08] Travis Bader: Mm-Hmm.

[02:10:09] Ian Sim: But that after that self-care. And, and, you know, we'll get the rest sorted out. So this book, again, no one thinks, well, more people are thinking about it now in policing is, is police officers being charged. Uh, in rare occasions, uh, one or two of them have gone to jail, um, media scrutiny, politics, the politicization of everything.

[02:10:36] Ian Sim: Thankfully we don't, um, elect our prosecutors or our judges. Because, you know, what's the best way to make a name as a prosecutor, judge, prosecute a cop, a movie star. I don't know. That was kind of the top. 

[02:10:52] Travis Bader: Yeah. You get yourself right out there. 

[02:10:54] Ian Sim: Um, and the book goes into that and, and, um, yeah. 

[02:11:00] Travis Bader: You know, there's one thing that I've, I haven't seen this written about.

[02:11:07] Travis Bader: I haven't seen it through the, the whole don't talk to the police and all the reasons behind it that I've never seen people advocate for, but it's one thing that I think people should consider, which is insofar as a lawyer is concerned. It's if you find yourself in a lethal force situation or whatever it might be, whatever your roadside thing, whatever it might be, you talk to the lawyer, they said, okay, have you talked to the cops?

[02:11:29] Travis Bader: Okay. What'd you say? Okay. Don't say anything else, right? Don't you're done. Don't talk to him. We'll figure it out afterwards. The one thing that I haven't seen is, uh, the opposite, which is asking questions. Because the whole, everything that you can say, can, everything you say can and will be used against you in the court of law, that, that whole thing, Miranda rights or whatever.

[02:11:52] Travis Bader: Um. Carmen Miranda? Carmen, that's right. We're the world. That's American. That's right. Oh, I know that's American Miranda rights, but, uh, Canada, what do we have? It's just, it's just a warning, right? That's what they call it. Well, it's your 

[02:12:05] Ian Sim: charter rights. 

[02:12:06] Travis Bader: Okay. 

[02:12:06] Ian Sim: Yeah. Your charter rights, uh, Canadian charter rights and freedoms.

[02:12:09] Ian Sim: It's your, it's so, um, yeah, you've been chartered, you've been warned. Um, so it's 

[02:12:15] Travis Bader: your charter rights. So, um, that goes two ways too. If you ask questions back to the police, why am I being arrested? Why am I being detained without being a dink about things, because obviously it's going to be a human nature in there and But.

[02:12:30] Travis Bader: Everything that's said back can also be used possibly in your favor in the future, in the same way, that way you say in the moment could be used against you. So when you're 

[02:12:39] Ian Sim: arrested, we tell you why, right? So right off the bat, you are under arrest for this. Do you understand, right? And then you continue, you know, you don't have to say anything.

[02:12:50] Ian Sim: Anything you say can be used against you. Do you understand? Would you like to call a lawyer? Do you understand? And a lot of the time now it's recorded on a digital recorder. The whole conversation is recorded. Now we're going to have body worn video in the not too distant future. Um, you know, that's going to record stuff too.

[02:13:09] Ian Sim: So I try and be as honest and open with everybody I deal with. Um, including, you Someone who you're arresting for a domestic homicide. Um, particularly with a serious file like that, right? You want everything done, slow it down. Make sure you check off all the boxes. They're going to be rechartered and warned a number of times anyways, once a homicide or I hit investigators get there.

[02:13:42] Ian Sim: So I'm not, I'm not out to trick anyone. 

[02:13:47] Travis Bader: No, a hundred percent. Yeah. 

[02:13:49] Ian Sim: And, and I 

[02:13:51] Travis Bader: will, um. Most police aren't, there's going to be that. My, my opinion, um, growing up in a law enforcement family, dealing with a lot of for enforcement fam, uh, dealing with law enforcement, both professionally and personally, is that the majority of law enforcement get in for very great reasons.

[02:14:11] Travis Bader: They've got a good hiring process here in Canada. They've got good training in Canada, and we've got some phenomenal people. You're going to have your very small percentage that are just rotten apples. You're going to have your very small percentage that are just leagues above superstars and then over time, people are people and they're going to see, I just arrested that person and they're out again, 10 minutes later.

[02:14:39] Travis Bader: And man, I still got a job to do. There's a reason we have game trails because animals take the least, the easiest Path. Creature of habit. People will take the easiest path. They'll still do their job. They're still majority are going to be of a high caliber, but they'll just plug and play and go through.

[02:14:58] Travis Bader: So by no means do we think that the policing are going to be out to get you. I think the majority of them are going to be well intentioned, but you know, if there's an easy path, we can go through here. And I mean, ABC, we'll go, we'll let the courts figure it out afterwards. I'll go through my process. If you give somebody their warning as a peace officer, okay, you're being arrested for ABC and D well, stolen vehicle, right.

[02:15:26] Travis Bader: Or whatever it might be, or speeding, or, you know, Oh, did you see me speeding? Well, no, I mean, you matched the description. Well, what was the description, right? And all of these little things that you can go through, and I'm not advocating for, for bad people to get off the hook, but for people who haven't done something wrong, because I've dealt with others in similar circumstances, I've been in a similar circumstance in the past.

[02:15:51] Travis Bader: And, um, Asking those questions at the time. Why do you feel this? Fair enough. I'm not fighting you. Right. We're not turning this into a fight, but I'll ask some questions as you go through, because all of that can, can speed up a process later on a process that might take, uh, let's say eight years to work its way through a system could be sped up to, I don't know, maybe a month, it can be.

[02:16:17] Travis Bader: And when they turn around and realize, okay, maybe we weren't operating off of the right, uh, information or circumstances. So that, that was one little piece that I've seen the asking questions part, which I haven't seen out there. 

[02:16:30] Ian Sim: And you know, it's interesting because people talk to me about certain policing stuff, right?

[02:16:34] Ian Sim: I mean, once you got a cop in uniform there, cause who talks to cops in uniform? I mean, when we knock on the door with bad news or we pull you over. Right. Um, but when do you, when do you see a police officer chilling that, that, that, and most people won't approach a cop anyways, right? Like to ask questions.

[02:16:52] Ian Sim: So we have to put ourselves out there in our community, out of the cars, on foot, on bikes, have to put the right people out there who, um, are. Are willing to talk to the public when the public come up to them. Yes. I would suggest you need to put the right people out there who will go and talk to the public because many of them won't.

[02:17:14] Ian Sim: The minute the ice is broken, everything changes. So. That's me, we're all different, um, different stages of our career, uh, good days, bad days. Uh, policing can do better. So there's talk about, um, changing the policing model in Canada to much of the finish, the finish policing model, three, three year program, um, kind of a combination between police college and post secondary, uh, with, with a focus on, uh, policing.

[02:17:49] Ian Sim: Uh, more relevant stuff, deescalation, ground fighting, um, jujitsu. Um, so six months at depo or at the justice institute of BC or the Ontario police college or whatever it's called. 

[02:18:02] Travis Bader: Sure. 

[02:18:03] Ian Sim: Uh, I think we could use more than six months. Hmm. Um, you coming in with a four year degree of even criminology. Okay. Um, we know you can think critically about things, um, but can you pass the physical abilities test?

[02:18:21] Ian Sim: Uh, like there's, there's a lot of things I think as, as an industry and, and I think we're moving in that direction, we can do better, we should do better. Um, we're held to a high standard, which we should be. 

[02:18:35] Travis Bader: Sure. 

[02:18:36] Ian Sim: However, I think there's one group of individuals in this country who should be held to a higher standard.

[02:18:41] Travis Bader: Yes. I think I know who you're talking about. 

[02:18:43] Ian Sim: And our elected officials don't seem to be very interested in being held to anywhere near the standard that we are. Sure. And I think that results in a lot of problems. Um, I know, like, I know some current mayors. I know some past mayors. I know some who wants to be premier.

[02:19:05] Ian Sim: I know the premier through my, he, he bumped into a number of times. Um, I gave him a couple of books. I gave him a book on transnational organized crime called McMafia, fantastic book. 

[02:19:19] Travis Bader: Yeah. 

[02:19:20] Ian Sim: Um, and it had some discussions with them because it's what I do. Um, but yeah, we need to up our game, um, you know, for a fabulously wealthy country, our infrastructures.

[02:19:38] Travis Bader: You know, I read a statistic about, um, uh, about corruption and it says, you know, you go to Mexico, you go to some third world countries and the rules are clear, right? You slip them some money, get out of the speeding ticket. There's a lot of low level corruption. Canada is next to none for low level corruption.

[02:20:00] Travis Bader: However, at the higher level, higher level corruption is through the roof. So, And that's where the lack of accountability is. And it's, if that statistic is true that I've looked at, that would probably account for some of the, some of the issues that we see on a regular basis. 

[02:20:17] Ian Sim: Well, uh, you know, shortly after I gave, uh, David Eby that book on transnational organized crime, was it short, he did the money laundering inquiry came out.

[02:20:30] Ian Sim: I don't know if it was shortly after that, or I think it was before. And he certainly didn't, um, start the inquiry because I gave him a book. 

[02:20:38] Travis Bader: Um, but. I think it came out into the public perception though, people, there's some hue and cry over the money laundering and. 

[02:20:45] Ian Sim: But no one was held accountable. So, you know, there's a, there's a, there's an old fashioned concept called personal responsibility, it's ancient, really, no one talks about it anymore.

[02:20:56] Ian Sim: Um, I was quite impressed that a, you know, kind of leftist NDP government was going to, you know, initiate a, a big needed, you know, law enforcement type thing. It kind of, I think, stopped halfway through and no one was held accountable. I think that's a problem. Um, our infrastructure is crumbling, fabulously wealthy country.

[02:21:24] Ian Sim: Uh, I think we just need to get back to basics and build on that. We're part of that. So we're part of the infrastructure policing. We should do better. Um, you know, I'll stand at the top of trail six, which is the top of the trail, uh, that goes 500 stairs down to wreck beach. And I do foot patrol still, obviously I'm old school, but.

[02:21:51] Ian Sim: Um, and people go, Hey boss. And I'm like, you've got that wrong. And they're like, I said, yeah, it's, it's the other way around. Right. And they're like, and they don't know what I'm talking about. I go, you're my boss. I work for you. It's not just a line. I work for you, that's my job. So I get, I report to the RCMP.

[02:22:24] Ian Sim: I don't work for them. I report to them kind of like a franchise. I'm a franchise owner. I own my own franchise. Um, you know, the, the head company, parent company is pretty good. But like any old bureaucratic, conservative organization, it could do better. So I think some of my standards and concepts and ideas are sometimes better than the parent company, but it's a franchise.

[02:22:49] Ian Sim: You do as you're told, um, but I work for you.

[02:22:57] Travis Bader: So I've got some friends who work in corrections and they say that, uh, it's an insult from the, um, the cons as they call them. Yes. They call it, call you a boss because it's SOB backwards. Right. 

[02:23:10] Ian Sim: Yep. And I understand the difference. I understand. You know who you're talking 

[02:23:14] Travis Bader: to when they say it. Right. And 

[02:23:16] Ian Sim: I understand if they're American kids, for the most part, Canadian students.

[02:23:20] Ian Sim: Um, yeah, I, I, yeah, I'm, I'm pretty good. And, and words matter, right. Um, you know, I've studied terrorism for decades. Um, both personally and professionally. My mom would say I started off as a little kid, but, um, words matter. And. You know, when I look at a lot of the antisemitic stuff happening recently around post secondary educations, I saw that stuff almost a decade ago when I got to UBC, you could see the groundwork being laid.

[02:23:59] Ian Sim: Not intentionally, but you know, the, the censorship, um, you can't say this, but you can say this and, and, and the intimidation and stuff. 

[02:24:11] Travis Bader: Yeah. 

[02:24:11] Ian Sim: And, you know, I don't think there's ever been a genocide in the history of the world where it didn't start with a demonization of particular group. And it's, it always starts with words, you know, um.

[02:24:28] Ian Sim: And Noam Chomsky would have something to say about that. Haven't read him in a long time, decades. But, um. And then I look and I'm like, this is no surprise. 

[02:24:39] Travis Bader: Um, 

[02:24:40] Ian Sim: you know, and I, and I was, there's, there's something called the Chicago principles, I think. Okay. Chicago university or university of Chicago. And they, and the minute you Google it, it pops up, but, um, yeah, you're not here at Chicago university to be safe.

[02:25:02] Ian Sim: Say physically, but, but, um, you're going to be here, uh, unpopular, contrary, um, opinions, discussions. That's what you're here for, right? Um, the exact opposite of a lot of the so called woke, um, cancel culture stuff. So the Chicago principles, um, so as a counter terrorism information officer, uh, working on a university campus, rec beach, um, I could see this groundwork being laid.

[02:25:44] Ian Sim: We used to call it political correctness. It takes different names, different forms, but it's no surprise that, um, that caught fire the day after October 7th, or was it the 6th, 7th? Um, And it was like, the groundwork was already laid. It's, I could see it coming and, and then you see why it's entrenched because you can entrench anything, racism, right?

[02:26:15] Ian Sim: Uh, uh, goodwill, like you can entrench, entrench anything, just. Get them in school for a while and just keep pumping them with whatever message you want to do. So, you know, someone was asking me, well, what can we do at universities to, to try and get us back on course, um, friendlier, more civilized discussions.

[02:26:46] Ian Sim: At the post secondary level. And I said, well, I don't know, why don't you pull all the money from post secondary institutions in the province, unless they adhere to the Chicago principles in both, uh, word and deed. Cause money gets people's attention like nobody else. That's it. Or nothing else. 

[02:27:07] Travis Bader: Money and power.

[02:27:07] Travis Bader: So Chicago 

[02:27:08] Ian Sim: principles, um. Um, maybe funding, provincial funding should be somewhat tied to, to that. Um, you know, the West doesn't know at all. Um, we, but we do a lot of things, right. And much of the world looked to us or did even still, we all need to try and up our game. Um, I don't think the elected officials know what they don't know.

[02:27:34] Ian Sim: They don't have any idea that effective and enduring community safety. Is comprised of public safety, which is their responsibility and personal safety. They don't know what to do now. They're sitting there twiddling their thumbs going, Oh crap. You know, uh, the liberals are saying, well, yeah, maybe we'll do some bail reform under C75.

[02:27:59] Ian Sim: Polyev's going, you know, jail, not bail. There's more to it than that. 

[02:28:05] Travis Bader: Well, how do you, how do you make personal sale, how do you make personal safety saleable, how do they make, uh, money off of personal safety or how do they make that win hearts and minds and votes by advocating for people to look after themselves?

[02:28:25] Ian Sim: Well, we talk a big game where politicians talk a big game about rights. You know, um, listen to the liberals, um, advocating for, um, Uh, reproductive rights for women, 

[02:28:37] Travis Bader: a woman's 

[02:28:37] Ian Sim: right to choose, it's front and center. 

[02:28:40] Travis Bader: Every 

[02:28:40] Ian Sim: election it's front and center again. Okay, well, let's have a discussion on rights in this country, particularly the right of all rights, section seven of the charter, security of person.

[02:28:55] Ian Sim: Yes, a woman's right to choose is, is, is up there, but as that other woman told me recently. It's not exactly as it's been portrayed. Maybe a woman's right to choose is, is primarily how, when, and if to choose to protect her life and the lives of her kids. Once you're safe, we'll discuss all the other rights.

[02:29:20] Ian Sim: So we need, um, bit more of the charter. In our high schools, we need, uh, maybe a whole course, I don't know. Um, but you can tie it into civics or social studies or history. 

[02:29:35] Travis Bader: Or into everything and just have a little bit over and over and over again. So 

[02:29:38] Ian Sim: into everything. 

[02:29:39] Travis Bader: Right. Um, 

[02:29:42] Ian Sim: we, um, rights just need to be a topic of discussion all the time.

[02:29:47] Ian Sim: So when you see in the news today at either the local level or federal level, um, on CKW, uh, when they talk about public safety is usually the term they use. 

[02:29:59] Travis Bader: Right. 

[02:30:00] Ian Sim: Um, that's fine. We'll just call it public safety. 

[02:30:01] Travis Bader: Sure. 

[02:30:03] Ian Sim: But it, it, it takes a village to raise a child. Uh, I think the more parents, the better, not getting any further than that.

[02:30:17] Ian Sim: I just think the more support children have, the better they are. 

[02:30:21] Travis Bader: Hmm. I mean. Two 

[02:30:22] Ian Sim: parents, uh, brothers, sisters, relatives, but it takes a village to raise a child. It takes a village to keep itself safe. Canadians are going to have to re engage in, um, looking out for each other. Can't, we can't do it in isolation.

[02:30:43] Ian Sim: We can't arrest our way out of this problem. Like not a chance. We are missing fully 50 percent of what we need, probably more, for community safety. And through any number, a number of factors of which we have no control, some we do, um, things are not going that well right now. We can turn a lot of that around.

[02:31:07] Ian Sim: Um, and, and the nice thing is, is if the government is unwilling or unable to do Do their public safety job, uh, better. The personal safety part is you don't need anyone's permission. That's the most important right you have. You can take as much control of it as you want or none, you don't need anyone's permission.

[02:31:35] Ian Sim: I get it. Most police forces won't talk about it. I don't think they know even what 

[02:31:40] Travis Bader: to talk 

[02:31:40] Ian Sim: about. VPD. Does a women's self defense course. They have a number of female instructors. I would love to have sat in on the course, but they wouldn't let me. No big deal. Um, even if we don't teach self defense and talk about, uh, tools, um, we can talk about personal safety.

[02:32:06] Ian Sim: In a, in a, in a, in a, in a very, really, uh, I could cover everything I've covered here in, in a, in a one and a half hour course with a half hour Q and A. 

[02:32:16] Travis Bader: Right. 

[02:32:18] Ian Sim: I think all police departments need to, cause our core mandate is public safety. So we've had it, you know, the DARE program was for don't do drugs, just so you know.

[02:32:28] Ian Sim: Um, SEPTED, uh, crime prevention through environmental design is, you know, to rent, B& Es, thefts. Where's the personal safety component? 

[02:32:39] Travis Bader: Well, I think people are afraid to advocate for personal safety based on, uh, Well, I think persons out there are fearful for the consequence if they enact personal safety, because it's not talked about, they don't know the parameters that they're allowed to be able to deal with, and they don't know what those rights look like.

[02:33:00] Travis Bader: And then on the other side would be, and I'll play devil's advocate here. Please. Um, That's how you get good policy. Sure. I think governments look at liability associated with telling people that they can protect themselves and things go sideways. So they'll say, no, no, no, we'll protect you. Right. Don't protect yourself.

[02:33:18] Travis Bader: You lock yourself in the room. We'll be there in a little bit. And if they turn around and say, get out there, protect yourself before this gets too bad, um, what do they wear? So people are so risk adverse at all different levels. That they start creating a system where they figure it's illusory. It's, it's, it's not real.

[02:33:38] Travis Bader: You don't, you can't have a police force out there that protects everybody all the time. It's reactive.

[02:33:47] Ian Sim: So I understand people's concern, hesitancy, Liability thoughts, uh, as an organization, I'm, I doubt my company, my outfit is going to have anything to do with, um, self defense, anything we can, we can talk about personal safety. Uh, from a rights based perspective, and I'm not talking fluff here. I don't think we've talked any fluff today.

[02:34:26] Ian Sim: I think we've talked absolutely concrete essentials. So we can have, let's say in every police detachment, a community safety coordinator, Who can coordinate all the sections and support services in a detachment, going in the same direction. So that would be, um, GD patrol, dealing with domestic victims and writing safety plans and saying, you know what, There's a couple of good books out there among many.

[02:35:08] Ian Sim: Um, so we're going to tell you to do this, this, this, this, all this stuff. There's a good book called The Gift of Fear. 

[02:35:16] Travis Bader: By Gavin DeBecker. It's 

[02:35:18] Ian Sim: been around for a couple of decades. It's been updated. I think that book should be in every high school library and on every counselor's desk. I also think that school administrators Um, should also have the book transition houses, safe houses should all have the book.

[02:35:38] Ian Sim: It's not deadly force, but for the vast majority of the public who aren't that inclined or particularly interested in the self defense component and prevention is the key. If we do a really good job on prevention, You'll never need that stuff. It's like martial arts. 

[02:35:59] Travis Bader: Right. 

[02:35:59] Ian Sim: I think the, the majority of the benefits of martial arts are, um, sense of community, fitness, self esteem, socialization.

[02:36:14] Ian Sim: Um, you may need it to save your ass one day. And that's important too. It's just that you probably won't use it for that all the time. 

[02:36:23] Travis Bader: Right. 

[02:36:23] Ian Sim: But all these other things that you do get from it are fantastic. And parents can do it with their kids, you know, I mean, super cool. Right. And most kids in martial arts, just look at one or the two of their parents, maybe both, like it's 

[02:36:37] Travis Bader: same 

[02:36:37] Ian Sim: like shooting, golf, whatever.

[02:36:39] Travis Bader: Sure. 

[02:36:40] Ian Sim: So from a policing perspective, community safety coordinator, every detachment to get the detachment on board. Get victim services with Gavin DeBecker's book, A Gift of Fear. Recommending your safety plans to your victims. Special Victims Unit can also Recommend it as well. Um, there are others. I just happen to think it's one of the best.

[02:37:05] Travis Bader: What was your big takeaway from that book? 

[02:37:06] Ian Sim: Oh, where to start? Um,

[02:37:13] Ian Sim: it has a little something in there for everybody. They talked about media personalities. Movie stars, TV stars, straight up domestic violence victims, a great section on, for HR people on how to fire, um, um, problematic employees and considerations before, during and after. It'd be great for school boards.

[02:37:38] Ian Sim: Like I just, I think for the, cause there's going to be a whole. Segment of the population that's going to start twitching the minute we talk about, um, civilian ATC. Sure. Authorization to carry. Um, you're going to have cops twitching, just the thought of the LLDA, the last line of defense out carrying off shift.

[02:38:02] Ian Sim: No, one's going to really twitch reading Gavin DeBecker's book. 

[02:38:05] Travis Bader: Hmm. 

[02:38:06] Ian Sim: Um, I, I think it's a fantastic book for the vast majority of the population, particularly policymakers. So if we get a community safety coordinator detachment level, getting, you know, special victims unit, everyone kind of moving in that direction, we get, um, community policing and school liaison to try and get that book, um, in, in high school libraries and on the counsellor's desks.

[02:38:32] Ian Sim: We talk to our safe houses and transition houses in our communities. Refer that book and any other book they want to buy, victim services are dealing with the victims, right? And then we take it outside of the detachment to the community and we focus on, um, community safety,

[02:39:00] Ian Sim: public safety, and personal safety. Nothing contentious, no liability. It's your right. It always has been. Self preservation is the first law of nature. Security of person is the first law of humanity. We'll explore the charter a bit. We'll explore the criminal code a bit. We'll talk about good preventative means.

[02:39:28] Ian Sim: The questions are always going to come up. Can I carry a knife? Can I carry a gun? All this stuff, baseball bat. It just goes on. For folks who want, worst case scenario is you have no tools. So go empty hand first. Martial arts, then work on tools, tools require training. They, they require, uh, considerably more thought before, during, and after.

[02:39:58] Ian Sim: So empty hand skills are better. Um, and before you get into empty hand skills, you can get into other skills. Sure. De escalation, avoidance, talking. I've never had to use my martial arts. I studied a World War II style of, of empty hand fighting, defend you. So, um, Dangerous Dan, William Fairbairn, um, you know, uh, Shanghai Municipal Police, uh, went to, back to Britain, Second World War and taught all the commandos, including Canadian commandos.

[02:40:30] Ian Sim: At camp X in Ontario. Um, I learned it from a, a former Canadian forces guy who trained with Colonel Rex Applegate in Oregon in the years before he died. He 

[02:40:42] Travis Bader: saw his book up there too. I did. Yeah. 

[02:40:44] Ian Sim: So, I mean, I kind of think, wow, Fairbairn taught Applegate. Applegate taught my instructor and then I got it.

[02:40:52] Ian Sim: Like the lineage, it's a very short line. And it's, it's, it's not, it's just destroying people. 

[02:41:00] Travis Bader: It's, 

[02:41:01] Ian Sim: you know, few arm blows, few leg blows and a few other unpleasant things. It's just to save your life. Um, never needed to use it at work, probably never would, unless it was an extreme case because it's, it's not.

[02:41:15] Ian Sim: It's not nice takedowns, come alongs, it's none of that stuff. Um, but I've never had to use it cause I talk to people and I use humor to, um, connect with, you can make someone laugh, smirk even, you're, you're, you're kind of ahead of the game. You know, I've sat in rooms with, um, heavily tattooed, um, motorcycle enthusiasts.

[02:41:42] Travis Bader: Hmm. 

[02:41:43] Ian Sim: You know, everyone talks to the police at some point. Or it's death or in jail. One of each. Um, it's all because, uh, part of it was because it was my job and, and that was the unit I was working in. But, but part of it is because they sought me out cause they liked me. 

[02:42:00] Travis Bader: If I 

[02:42:00] Ian Sim: have to talk to a cop, who's it going to be?

[02:42:03] Ian Sim: Somebody you respect. Or, or at least don't hate because he liked my dog, I got a pit bull. Like we have something in common. Right. He liked my bike. He made me laugh. It's just. He just, he didn't treat me like shit. 

[02:42:16] Travis Bader: Yeah. You have to feel like there's some form of a connection there. 

[02:42:19] Ian Sim: So again, you know, when I'm talking to young constables and, and, and, you know, new in service, um, that person might be your source one day, um, be polite.

[02:42:35] Ian Sim: Be professional, um, humor, humor can cross some of those boundaries, find commonality, but find commonality with everyone you're out talking to, schools, community. You got to get out of your car. We're short staffed, people are busy, but you know, again, um, we can do a better job in this outfit. It's not rocket science.

[02:42:59] Travis Bader: Uh, 

[02:43:00] Ian Sim: defund us, not a chance. 

[02:43:01] Travis Bader: It's 

[02:43:02] Ian Sim: going to be more expensive. Um, but Canada can afford us. Well, I don't know. I don't know where all the money's gone. Didn't go to infrastructure, I guess. But we just, I, you know, we don't have community safety coordinators. I think we need one in every detachment. I think we need to get the detachment on the same page.

[02:43:21] Ian Sim: Then we go into the community and do the preventative stuff. We have the victims already. We should be, cause now we've got an interested audience. Yes. Maybe for a short period of time, but maybe not, but, and you know, we, we just get the concept of rights when we talk at schools. Let's talk about community safety, but throw the charter in, right?

[02:43:43] Ian Sim: We don't need government's permission to look out for ourselves. Exercising the most important human right you have is not taking things into your own hands, it's not. So when you hear that, it's like time out. No, no, no. Let's have a chat. A 

[02:44:05] Travis Bader: hundred percent agree. Ian, is there anything that we should be talking about that we haven't talked about?

[02:44:12] Ian Sim: Yes, but I'll, I'll remember it on the drive home, uh, or tonight, or when I'm debriefing this in my head all afternoon. Um, yeah, I mean, I'll go to my coffee shop in North Van and always with a book. 

[02:44:25] Travis Bader: Yeah. 

[02:44:26] Ian Sim: And have a big cup of tea. And I probably won't pick up my book once. 

[02:44:29] Travis Bader: Yeah. 

[02:44:30] Ian Sim: Because there's just, uh, lots going on.

[02:44:33] Ian Sim: Um. 

[02:44:33] Travis Bader: I hear you. I hear you. I 

[02:44:36] Ian Sim: jump, I apologize. Cause I, I kinda, I'm a bit of a squirrel. I jump around. 

[02:44:39] Travis Bader: Yeah. I got ADHD. I can, I can chase squirrels all day. I've 

[02:44:42] Ian Sim: never been assessed, but, um. You know, I, I think there's some common themes in there. 

[02:44:48] Travis Bader: There are. 

[02:44:49] Ian Sim: And I need help from my community, which is Canada. I need help from my community, which is team Canada.

[02:45:04] Ian Sim: And we can, we can start turning this around. There's some big problems out there, uh, mental health, opioid addiction, all that stuff, um, Russia, China, Iran, like there's a lot going on in the world. So, you know, think global, but we can act local, uh, policing can do a better job. Um, I think community safety coordinator at every detachment, and I'll be happy to write the national course if they want, uh, it's not rocket science.

[02:45:35] Ian Sim: We can just do a better job. Resources are a bit of a problem. Um, we need to educate our, um, educators. We need to educate municipal, provincial and federal politicians. It'll be easier To it, to, to, um, engage our municipal politicians, probably they're accessible. 

[02:45:57] Travis Bader: Sure. 

[02:45:57] Ian Sim: Right. Um, community safety is highly dependent on personal safety.

[02:46:05] Ian Sim: You don't need anyone's permission. There's good resources out there. Um, deadly force by Masada Yoube. Uh, this is a history book, uh, to keep in bear arms, but Gavin DeBecker's book, uh, the gift of fear is excellent. Um, local police department should be able to help you. Uh, Say hi to a cop when you're out.

[02:46:24] Ian Sim: Yeah. I mean, right now I'm out, it's summertime. Um, and I got to carry all this cash. I carry all these loonies and toonies. My buddy's like, you always carry your card. What's going on? I go, yeah, except for in the summer, because there's lemonade stands out there and like, get out of your car, talk to people.

[02:46:41] Ian Sim: Most people like us in Canada. Contrary to what you might hear in the media. Um, most kids like us. 

[02:46:47] Travis Bader: Yeah. 

[02:46:48] Ian Sim: Um, we can, we can turn a lot of this around. Um, you and your industry, um, should have both these books in every firearm store in the country. And why don't we start teaching, um, Women's defensive pistol class, um, it's put in the cart before the horse.

[02:47:08] Ian Sim: Cause we don't have civilian 

[02:47:10] Travis Bader: ATC, 

[02:47:12] Ian Sim: but why don't we start teaching William women's defensive pistol courses around the country. Silver Corps, Millbrook, there's a bunch of other people out there now. There's a lot of military people out there who are looking for firearms instructors jobs. We could start that and, and letting women know that, This is the most important right you have.

[02:47:32] Ian Sim: Indigenous communities too. Um, they're looking for economic opportunities. We are short of ranges across the country. So if you want to address some community safety problems in your community, maybe an indoor and outdoor range is, is, is a good economic, a viable economic opportunity. Uh, if it's indoor range, you can shoot all winter.

[02:47:56] Ian Sim: You're going to attract people with a pal, all of whom proven by the government of Canada aren't criminals. Um, and let's keep this conversation going. Um, we don't have to wait till the feds do it. Provinces could start some of this, if only the LLDA allowing us to carry off shift or mandating it as low risk as you can get cost taxpayers, nothing.

[02:48:24] Ian Sim: And let's, let's, uh, do that. Um, You know, it takes a community, keep itself safe and let's start turning this thing around. 

[02:48:32] Travis Bader: Ian, thank you so much for being on the Suffolk Road Podcast. I really enjoyed the discussion here. 

[02:48:36] Ian Sim: My pleasure. I'd heard about you. I saw you last night for my first podcast. I'm really glad I got to meet you.