Silvercore Podcast 186 Rocky Swanson

[00:00:00] Travis Bader: I am so fascinated by our natural world, by what we already know about it and by what we're still figuring out. And right at the edge of that, in the space between settled science and folklore, is the conversation about UAP, or unidentified aerial phenomena. What we used to refer to as UFOs. Last Friday, the Pentagon dropped 162 declassified files on the subject through a new portal they call Pursue.

This is the first formal federal release in 80 years and people are losing their minds about it. Some, they're calling it disclosure. Some are calling it a nothing burger. And I've spent the last year talking to someone who I think can cut through all of it. My guest today is a man who grew up on the BC coast.

He joined the Army Cadets at 12. [00:01:00] He served a full career in the Canadian Armed Forces, including a NORAD posting, and came home to serve as deputy fire chief in the town he grew up in. He's been running a discussion group of scientists, researchers, and military intelligence folks for years. He's been a guest host on a podcast that interviewed Lue Elizondo and other big names.

He's been approached by the federal government to advise on a Canadian UAP initiative alongside sitting members of parliament. But here's the part that makes him interesting to me. He thinks most of the people on the stage right now, they're full of it. Not the topic, the people. He believes in the possibility of life out there.

He does not believe that the witnesses currently making the headlines are the ones who have found it. That's a conversation I wanna have today with a guy who got close enough to see the seams. Welcome to the Silvercore Podcast, Rocky Swanson. Yeah. Thanks so much. You know, while we've been chatting, I, I've been looking forward to this.

No kidding. Ho- [00:02:00] honestly, it's been a hell of a, uh, education for me. So I was first put in touch with you, and you were put in touch with me by a mutual friend of ours. Right. Now, this mutual friend of ours also served in the Canadian Armed Forces, and he holds a government position. He's a person who has, um- extremely high credibility, and he's, uh, been trained on observation and surveillance and, uh, and reporting.

And what he did is he said, "Trav, I, I got this thing that I was doing surveillance in a remote area, and myself and a few others, we all saw this thing flying in the air or floating in the air. We didn't know what it was, and so we videotaped it, and we pulled it up, and we looked at this thing, and we got a copy of it."

Now, I've received formal permission from him to be able to release what he saw there. Uh, I haven't sought or received formal permission to release his name, so I'm gonna just leave that out of it. [00:03:00] Um, I will put that thing up in the background as I'm talking right now so people can see what it is we're looking at.

But, uh, that got you and me talking, and it introduced me into other people. Some people call it a UAP, some people call it a plasmoid. Some people have com- completely other ideas about interdimensional beings and the rest. But whatever it was, um, it at the very least sparked a conversation and an ongoing friendship between myself and you, which I'm hoping we're gonna be able to continue further as further tranches are released as the Pentagon releases more information.

But why don't I turn the mic over to you, Rocky? 

[00:03:41] Rocky Swanson: Yeah. Um, well, our mutual friend, first of all, when- whenever that story actually breaks, he is, um, 

a 

true 

subject matter 

expert in the areas of, uh, reconnaissance in the armed forces, and I've known him since we were 12 years old, actually. 

[00:03:57] Travis Bader: Mm-hmm. 

[00:03:57] Rocky Swanson: We, uh, we were in the Army Reserve together, and then I [00:04:00] went to the regular army.

But, uh, that gentleman, uh, stayed with the Reserve in a full-time capacity and worked his way up, uh, to a very high position and, uh, served overseas and, and is, uh, someone, uh, that within the armed forces is, is almost legendary. He, he is- Mm-hmm ... a, an exceptional soldier. So yeah, there's, there's no credibility issues when it comes to that story whatsoever.

And I, I reviewed those, uh, video clips that he had sent as well, and, and they're, they're interesting for sure. Mm. He definitely s- they definitely observed some- 

something that was making a light off in the distance, and it was, um, 

it, uh, I would say it spooked them. That's my words, not necessarily theirs, but, um- Sure

yeah, very interesting for sure. 

[00:04:43] Travis Bader: So you, you actually provided examples of the exact same-looking thing in other areas of the world that- Right ... has been observed going up and down, doing the same sort of thing. Um, y- I guess before we get into the nuts and bolts of all of this, just for my own edification, what [00:05:00] do you think that thing was?

I don't 

[00:05:02] Rocky Swanson: know. Um, I- 

[00:05:02] Travis Bader: Mm ... 

[00:05:03] Rocky Swanson: I don't actually know. What I think it was, and this is just me surmising, 

was based on the movement and the distance that they were looking at, there's a good chance it was a drone off in the distance. Okay. Um, 'cause there, because there are literally thousands and thousands of drones flying every day.

Mm. And, 

and certainly what they were, 

what they were doing, uh, obviously had to do with drones themselves. And, and, uh, 

that's the, that's the part that's so interesting is that these people, this mutual friend of ours and, and his team are, are subject matter experts on drones as well. And so- Mm ... for, for them to, uh, be baffled baffles me.

And, uh, so- Mm-hmm ... there are, there are sightings of objects that remain mysterious, and that's okay. It's okay to not know. 

[00:05:50] Travis Bader: Okay, little bit of a technical glitch there, but we're able to get it addressed, so we'll just pick right back up where we left off. 

[00:05:55] Rocky Swanson: Yeah, well, I, I think that the fact that these guys are...

Like, often we'll hear stories in the [00:06:00] UFO world about, you know, subject matter experts and, and whatnot, but what was interesting about this case is these guys really are, uh, some of the best, um, that the country has to offer on, on drone technology. They are, um, trying to be careful not to identify what agency they work for, but they're government.

And they, um, um, were baffled as to what they saw. And not only that, th- these gentlemen are truly trained in observation. We, we hear that a lot, again, in, in ufology circles, you know, trained observer, but no one ever defines what that really means. In armored reconnaissance in the Army, uh, which is what some of these people did, their, their level of understanding about how to observe objects at a distance, how to observe objects at night, over water, over valleys, in foggy conditions, they've got this nailed down.

Mm. So it is an interesting case. And, and the fact that they were so, um, jolted by [00:07:00] it and, uh, you know... Or, yeah, the fact that they were so jolted by it is what really got me because, you know, I was always embarrassed, uh, to tell my Army friends about my interest in the topic. Mm. Right? And, and a lot of them, uh, would kind of look at me like I was weird just because I was into it, including, I have to say, one member of this team that we're talking about.

And when he phoned me up out of the blue, um, to, to ask me to look at something for him, um, that was interesting, and I took it quite seriously because, um, he wasn't into this topic in the slightest, 

[00:07:37] Travis Bader: right? So- Mm. So I- Um- I was just watching this, uh, episode of Diary of a, of a CEO, and Steven Bartlett, who's the host there, he had a couple guys on, uh, got their names around here somewhere, but they're, they're experts in their field about, uh, UFOs, UAPs, and, and all the rest.

But the thing that I [00:08:00] found interesting was that Steven, he likes his true crime detective, uh, podcast. He says he's gonna approach it from that angle, and he kept asking questions like, "What proof do you have?" Like, like, "How do you know?" And some of the interesting ones that I think are inter- I kinda like are, um, what, like, what would it take for you to believe that this is something other than alien?

And I get the sense that a lot of people in the field of these experts are completely entrenched in their idea that this has gotta be real. Yeah. And they just look for reasons that confirm what they already have. And what intrigued me in talking with you, because when I was preparing for my podcast with Chris Ramsey, who does, uh, Area 52, and he's a, uh, Canadian YouTube personality.

Right. And he, he's into the whole thing as well. Um, what struck me about you is you come from a perspective where you've got a deep interest in it. You believe that there's, there's something out [00:09:00] there, but you're also highly skeptical. And you apply a framework to all the information that comes in to try and separate the wheat from the chaff.

So as we're looking at this new disclosure that comes in from the, uh, the Pentagon, are we seeing anything new? Is there things to be separated? Like, and I, I guess- Well... Yeah, go on. 

[00:09:23] Rocky Swanson: Well, for those that have been into the topic for some time, there's not a lot new there. I mean, there's certainly some new video clips, but you can't make much of them.

Mm. 

I have to say, though, there's, there is one particular clip that... Well, there's two that I, I'd like to mention real quick and, and, and I'll get into them if you wish. 

Mm. 

Uh, one is that there's this sort of star-shaped image of an object. It looks like a star-shaped object kinda zooming around and, and, um, uh, it's pretty impressive.

It's taken through thermal imagery, uh, or so it appears to be taken through thermal. There's not a lot of data there to know for sure- Mm ... you know, what it was using. They... Some [00:10:00] people are claiming it was a, of a specific type of drone camera. That's all fine and good. Um, I have a background of, uh, more than 30 years working with thermal imagery in the field, weapons grade thermal and, of course, in the fire service.

I teach classes on thermal imagery, um, and, and how to understand, uh, what you're actually looking at. And, and I'm, and I don't claim to be an expert even yet, even with all that time. A real expert is somebody who can pull those cameras apart and understand, you know, down to the, you know, microscopic level- Mm

everything that's happened. 

[00:10:30] Travis Bader: Mm-hmm. 

[00:10:30] Rocky Swanson: Well, I'm an n- and I've worked with F18 pilots- On observation skills and armored, uh, soldiers in the army as well, and, and in the Navy. Um, so the, the whole gamut of the armed forces. Um, I've worked with the RCMP, uh, you know, using thermal and people with drones, et cetera.

So, um, what I see when I look at a thermal image is, first of all, um, one thing we all have to understand is that thermal close-up can give you a good, accurate representation of a shape of an object, because it's, it's [00:11:00] measuring the first 100th of a millimeter of surface temperature. 

Hmm. 

But when it's further out, um, that starts to distort because you're, you're actually measuring the air and gases around an object.

So something like an illumination flare dropped from a P-3 Orion or, you know, here on the West Coast we have P-3s. They're- in Canada, we call them Auroras, but that's, it's a P-3 Orion, a reconnaissance aircraft, submarine, anti-submarine aircraft. They're, they're 40 kilometers away from my house. I see them dropping these flares every Thursday night pretty much.

And so when you are looking through something extremely hot and bright, um, through thermal, it is different than, say, using night vision goggles. Two totally different technologies, right? 

Hmm. 

Thermal, thermal ... Th- both, both tools, night vision and thermal, will both give you, uh, artifacts that aren't necessarily something that you would see with the naked eye.

Hmm. So for example, hot gases, you can, [00:12:00] you can see that with thermal. But, you know, smoke, you'll see right through most smoke depending on how dense it is. That's why we use them in firefighting. That's why in the Army when we pop smoke from our, our, um, armored vehicles, um, you know, often we can see through it, but of course the Army has a, a f- a special kind of super smoke so it, it, it can block-

thermal images as well. Sure. Um, so this image, um, when I look at it, what I see is, um, potentially a illumination flare and that it's distorting, the image is being distorted because again, you're not really seeing what the object is shaped like. You're seeing potentially the hot gases around it, and that's giving you these artifacts so it looks like something really out of this world.

Hmm. And now, look, I can't say 100% if it is out of this world or it isn't, but I can say I easily replicated those images last week using a thermal imager camera and pointed it at the sun. Hmm. [00:13:00] And, and within seconds my theory in one part of it was proven wrong. So I thought that what I was seeing, and, and guys like Steven Greenstreet thought they were seeing, was a smoke trail.

And, and, you know, so then I started scratching my head going, "Wait a minute. That, that actually doesn't work." So we're not seeing a smoke trail behind the object. What we're actually seeing is an artifact on the lens, not on the lens, but the, the recreated image that the thermal processor is, is giving us is, is actually, it's almost in a sense, how do I describe this?

It's almost like it's burning into the lens of the, of the viewer- Sure It's moving around and the, the, the, um, the camera's trying to catch up. Sure. And so it's kind of leaving a g- There, there's a refresh rate. Yeah, exactly right. So it's not, um, it's not a smoke trail that we're seeing. So I initially said it was a smoke trail.

I was dead wrong. So I don't, I don't mind ... I'm happy when I'm wrong, 'cause now I m- know what I'm looking at. Mm. That's what I was able to recreate. By just taking up a thermal imager camera, pointing it right at the [00:14:00] sun, and then just moving the camera around, I was able to create that same zigzag pattern in two seconds.

So- Mm ... it's not a smoke trail. Um, but you'll see more of a blobby mass behind that. That's probably superheated gases. And, and why that tells me that it's probably not something highly advanced is because anyone who's creating an object that, that is going to be of a super advanced technology isn't gonna wanna waste a bunch of energy out the back end.

And so this thing is just pouring heat out, and that's, that's not, uh, that's not, um, green technology. That's that's old school stuff. It's likely a flare, right? And so if aliens are coming here and they're wasting that much energy, I, I don't think they'd get here. Mm. So it's, that's a theory on my part. But I, you know, it's, it's, it's easily recreated, so therefore I don't really think much of it.

Um, there's another artifact within that image that, um, myself and others were saying was likely the parachute from the flare, and I would [00:15:00] retract that statement now and say that's also likely an artifact, and so I was fooled as well. So here I am making my ... discrediting myself, right? Um, I- Well, 

[00:15:09] Travis Bader: this is why I wanted 

[00:15:10] Rocky Swanson: you on, because you can take an objective-

look at these things. Well, yeah. I mean, and it's ... And, uh, look, every time we're wrong about something, it's an amazing moment, 'cause you're like, "Okay, my, my most foundational, uh, thoughts and initial hypotheses on what this was gonna be are, are off." But the fact that I was able to recreate it still tells me it's likely a, a, a flare.

Um, but I put that in the gray basket because I can't, I can't say definitively, um, yet with- Mm. So the next one was a more clear image of what appeared to be a bright, shiny object flying, zigzagging in and out of some wind turbines. Okay. Uh, looked like a foggy day. What, what's actually happening there is that there's a, a drone that's quite high [00:16:00] up filming something at a extraordinary distance.

That drone in and of itself is, is not just flying in a straight line. It's actually taking a, a turn at one point, and its camera's on a gimbal. And here we go with gimbals again. Um, and this is where the viewer, uh, us watching this on our TV screens or on our, on our cell phones ... And that's another problem.

We should talk about cell phones in a moment. But when we're watching this on a screen at home, we don't know that the camera itself is moving and turning when it- turn. So it makes it like the object that it's filming is actually doing a 90-degree turn, and in fact, that object never turned at all. It was flying in a straight line.

It also isn't zigzagging in and out of the, uh, wind, uh, turbines. It's actually not even close to them. It's flying in front of them, uh, in a straight line. But due to those optical illusions, um, we're, we humans are easily [00:17:00] fooled. 

Mm. And so 

I don't know what the object is. Some people think it's a bird or a balloon.

I, I don't care. All I know is that it wasn't doing anything amazing. 

Mm. And 

so, you know, that, that's just one of those things and, and this isn't surprising, though. I mean, 95% of most things we observe are going to be easily explained or at least, um, to use an overly used phrase, they're going to be prosaic.

Mm. Right? And that's good, right? So we, we can, we can scrape that stuff off the table and go, "Next," you know? Mm-hmm. And piece of evidence, right? I think that when you look at the totality of sightings and the, um, the technical data that we do get from some of these things, there are mystery objects, uh, out there.

They're a mystery to the people that should likely know- Mm ... um, in, in a lot of cases. If we go back and look at the 2004, the now famous 2004 Tic Tac case with the- Sure ... USS, you know, this, this was [00:18:00] the famous case that Luis Elizondo and Chris Mellon and those, uh, gentlemen brought out from the Pentagon. Um, I'm extraordinarily skeptical of that case, not because I think that, um, the pilots like, uh, Commander Fravor or anybody are lying.

I just don't think it's fair to assume that just because somebody is a highly respected pilot or a highly respected counterintelligence officer that they necessarily have all of the data available. And, you know, when I called, uh, a couple of friends at NORAD about that case, the, the, the thing that struck me most, um, instantly, I guess, is that they, they were not worried about it.

Mm. And were more or less inferring that they know where they park at night. So- ... um, certain it was something of theirs. And, you know, um, you, you pick up your, your slipper and toss it across the room, and NORAD pretty much knows it. So it's, it's, um ... They, they, they have some [00:19:00] incredible abilities at NORAD, and I think that because of the secrecy around their abilities, um, often we'll hear alleged subject matter experts say, you know, "We know for sure it's not ours."

Mm. Be careful with that because there's a lot of silos out there, and there's a lot of programs and projects. And not only that, um, I, I've worked with F-18 pilots like Commander Fravor. Not him personally, but with pilots that flew F-18s and, um, th- certainly they are experts at observing targets on the ground and, and targets in the air.

But- When they observe an object they've never seen before, they're equally baffled like anybody else. Mm. The, the human ... to, to observe and calculate and, and, um, uh, discern what we're looking at is, is no better often with pilots or astronauts than it is with the average person on the ground. It's ... In, in those conditions, it, it's extremely difficult, especially if the object is moving [00:20:00] quickly.

[00:20:00] Travis Bader: Mm. 

[00:20:00] Rocky Swanson: You know? And it's, you know, it's, it's difficult. Um, I'm also not impressed by that story in the sense that we appear to be fed a narrative. We're told about the TikTok. We're told that it's flying, it's doing hypersonic speeds. We're told that it's doing 90-degree turns, and it's, it's, um, working outside the area of known physics.

[00:20:24] Travis Bader: Mm. Is 

[00:20:24] Rocky Swanson: it? When we look at the video, we see an object, like a blob, moving lazily to the left off the screen. We don't see anything that they're describing. And I've found that since 2017, specifically, often when these stories come out, we're told, "This is what happened. Look, you're seeing this." And, and it's sort of like, you know, the old Obi Wan Kenobi, "These aren't the droids you're looking for."

Like, like, "Here's the story, here's the narrative. Believe me, because I have an impressive resume." Mm. And [00:21:00] I'm ... I, I made a ... I have made every mistake you can make in this field, and I'm sure I'm making some still. Um, and that is that I allowed my feelings about senior chain of command officers to affect my critical thinking.

In other words, I thought, "Well, this, these are well-placed, high, you know, high-ranking officials from the Pentagon. They definitely have the facts down." Mm. They ... I was wrong about that. You know, and there's, there's personal motives there with some people that are, you know, whether out to make a book or, or, sorry, sell a book or a video or whatever.

And I'm not- Sure, 

[00:21:37] Travis Bader: sure ... 

[00:21:38] Rocky Swanson: anybody in particular, but that's just a fact. There's, there's people out there trying to make dollars off of this as well. Um, and I, I'm sorry if I'm jumping around here a little bit, but I'm just giving my impression of the recent ufology in the last, say, nine years, right? Well, 

[00:21:54] Travis Bader: I figured, uh, what I was

we can do is we can talk a little bit about [00:22:00] how you got into this subject field- Hmm ... of interest, how you started- Sure ... to become critical of these sort of things. Yeah, okay. Yeah. I'm obviously gonna touch down on 2017 specifically because you brought that up. And, you know, uh, there is another point in here which, which I hear coming up all the time, and it's this idea that there's a cabal of people- Hmm

out there that are controlling things or controlling a narrative. And I'm- Wrong I'm not convinced that there is- No ... some, some cabal of people that are trying to influence and control the world for their own benefit. I do believe that there are people who will surf a wave of something that's happening.

Sure. They'll see something happening out there, they're like, "Ho-ho, the ocean's rising. We got some swell. Let's get on our board. We're gonna make some hay. We got the books and videos, and we got some money to make." Oh, sure. And I think that happens in all categories, but I think it's lazy for people to, uh, abrogate their responsibility and their agency and say, "Well, it's, is outside of me."

And that's- Yeah ... that's the part that [00:23:00] really intrigues me about your approach, is that, and you can correct me if I'm wrong, but you seem to have a bit of a rubric or a framework to how you approach, uh, information that comes in, and how you internalize it and put it into whatever bucket it's gonna be in.

And the really interesting thing, I think, is that you haven't ruled out, despite ruling out a lot of stuff, you haven't ruled out the possibility of some of these claims. That there might be technology, or there might be, uh, life out there. So that's sort of the, the gist of what I was thinking to go, "Well, why don't we start with- Sure

you?" Like, how did you get into this? Yeah. And then was there an aha moment that took you from, "I, I, I think there's something out there, I want to believe," to, "Okay, time to get a bit more critical"? Yeah. Yeah, there was. 

[00:23:51] Rocky Swanson: Um, I, I... How I got into it exactly is, is kind of all over the map. I've given a number of different answers on [00:24:00] that, and, and that's because at any given time I'm remembering, you know, one thing or another.

But, you know, when I was nine years old, um, I was here on the West Coast. Uh, it was Saturday morning, I was watching cartoons. Wile E. Coyote and the Roadrunner. Love that. 

[00:24:13] Travis Bader: Mm-hmm. 

[00:24:13] Rocky Swanson: And, um, I looked over my shoulder. We, we had a waterfront home. Back in those days, poor people lived on the waterfront, so- ... you know, there we...

And, uh, um, I saw what I thought was the moon, I think, you know, and it was just, uh, shining in the sky like a full moon, but it was, uh, like a foggy s- um, foggy morning. Mm-hmm. And, um, um, that, that kind of foggy morning, though, where the sun is bright and, and it's breaking up. You know, anyway, I could see what I thought was the moon, but it was, it was weird looking.

It didn't look exactly like the moon. And so I started watching cartoons again, turn back over my shoulder, and this thing is closer. And, and it's silver, and it's- Mm ... round, and it's huge. And, um, I could also see the moon off to my left, so it [00:25:00] wasn't the moon. And, um, I had never heard of UFOs. I had never heard of any of this.

I was nine years old living here in the countryside and, and I had no concept. So I was just baffled as to what it was I was looking at. I didn't, I didn't have any framework to go on. Like, so I didn't sit there and, and say I saw a UFO, because I, I had never heard of that. Um, the most- I'd ever seen was, you know, we lived out in the country, so we didn't even have cable.

We had rabbit ears on our TV. Sure, yeah. And it wouldn't come in clear, you know. You would smack the floor and shake the TV- Mm-hmm ... and hopefully it'd clear. Yeah. That's who we were, right? Um, so anyway, that was exciting. I, I saw something and, and, um, was just sort of baffled by it, and went back to watching cartoons and, and, you know, kind of forgot about it.

But over the years, um, you know, so years went by and then, and then this TV show, The X-Files, comes on and I start thinking, "Oh, maybe I saw something." So it interested me enough [00:26:00] to dig. And, um, I think that I became ardently skeptical initially when I was listening to sh- TV show, or not TV shows, but radio shows like the old Art Bell, Coast to Coast.

Which I, I Yeah. And a lot of late nights in the Army, AM radio, listening to that stuff. So it was very intriguing. And yes, in fact, there were stories told by some impressive folks that, that sounded plausible. And so I kept an open mind about it. I, when I say I started off as, as a more of an ardent skeptic at, at that time, I'm talking about my early 20s.

Um, I, I just hadn't seen anything that I found compelling. Mm. Uh, but when, you know, years went by and I, I got kind of fascinated with Richard Dolan's books and, and different people out there, um, I started going down the UFO, ufology rabbit hole, where I was becoming more of a believer based on stories being told rather than [00:27:00] myself, um, being able to dissect any objective, uh, evidence.

Mm. Right? So, so I was slowly myself going down the rabbit hole of believer. And then 2016 hit, and I'd finally sort of got out of that, that thinking just around the time that Lue Elizondo and Chris Mellon r- you know, came forward and started talking. And so I jumped right back into it. And, um, I didn't have a life jacket on.

I just jumped in headfirst and started basically believing what these guys were saying- Mm ... based on the fact where they worked. And actually, I had some mutual friends that, that sort of knew who Lue was and, and that kind of sold it for me, right? But, um, uh, over time, talking to, you know, gentlemen like Lue Elizondo and, and others, I started to, you know, like a lot of people, just notice that there was a lot of talking going on, but the evidence [00:28:00] wasn't coming out.

Like, what was being presented a- as evidence was... And I'm not saying this about Lue or anybody specifically, I'm just talking about the, the subject here in general. Um, the evidence that was coming forward was not, um, compelling. Like, the, it was fascinating, but no- there was no signature there that said, "Aha, this is definitely something out of this world."

It, it just didn't match the story. 

Mm. 

So I, I was kind of embarrassed because I, um, noth- there's nothing like shame as a motivator, right? To- Uh, 

and it- 

Mm-hmm ... and, um, I, I, I investigate arson and, and explosions. I'm a, I'm a fire investigator, and, um, I, I had to give myself a slap and said, "Why am I not applying the same rigorous standards to this topic that I am applying to fire and arson investigation?"

And, and the answer was because in this topic, I wanted the answer to be one thing. Mm. I was, I, I was [00:29:00] polluting the data myself, right? With my, my hopes and dreams of it being real. And so I, I backed out for a few years, and then decided to have a look at it again with a, a more critical eye and, and just look at the evidence.

And not as a debunker. I'm not out here to, to, to debunk every single story. Um, uh, but what I, what I do believe is that this is one of the most fascinating and, like, the most important topics we will ever discuss as a people. And if that's the case, if it is so important, if it is so fascinating, it deserves the most rigorous, skeptical attention it can possibly get.

When we're given a story, we should rip it apart and look for those golden nuggets in there. And guess what? One of these days we'll probably find the real thing. I have no doubt. The, the universe is ridiculously large. Um, the, the, the idea that, that we're the only life out there, no one, no one thinks that.

Nobody [00:30:00] thinks we're the only intelligent life. But has it come here? And if it is here, is it hiding from us? Is it... You know, what i- what form does it take? You know, is, what is this? So what I think we should do is be exceptionally serious about this, and, and treat it the same way we would if we were investigating a cancer case of some new kind of cancer.

We would look for data. We would hand out our data. We would ask for people of, of those levels of expertise that deal with that cancer to rip it apart and look for the, the signs of, of, you know, what's, what's happening there, right? 

Mm. 

And I don't believe right now we're seeing a lot of seriousness when it comes to this.

We have people claiming they're serious, and then in the same breath they tell you it's a demon. Mm. And I, I, I, I, I'm sorry, but- To see an object in the sky that we can't explain and then to jump to it's one of Satan's angels is, is a little too far for me, [00:31:00] right? So I think we need to back up, um, and, um, and, and stop accusing the demons of doing all this stuff, right?

[00:31:07] Travis Bader: We, we need, 

[00:31:08] Rocky Swanson: you know, we just need to, um, look at what we have. And in, and in a lot of cases we have fascinating, um, video. Uh, supposedly there's radar data out there that nobody ever gets to see. Um, I have seen some radar data, and there has been some very fascinating, um... Actually, everybody should look this up.

There's a guy named Daniel Oti- Otis. Um, he's with CTV News. He's a very good friend of mine. And, um, he, he writes a lot of the stories on UFOs for s- uh, CTV here in Canada, and he's interviewed a lot of these, these folks. But what he has done that's really fascinating is he has, um, received more access to information requests.

In other words, in, in Canada, we don't use ATI ac- um, sorry, we don't use, um, FOIA in Canada, we use ATI. 

Mm-hmm. 

Um, but in the [00:32:00] United States everyone's familiar with the Freedom of Information Act requests. We have FOIAs provincially, but federally we use something called the ATI, Access to Information. And Daniel has, uh, received some incredible data from the Canadian Armed Forces through the ATI process showing that in fact we have detected objects moving at incredible altitudes and exceptional speeds, and that is interesting.

So someone out there does actually have some toys that are, uh, at the very least exceptionally advanced. That cannot be, um, denied by any debunker or skeptic. And I am a skeptic. I don't know what those objects are, but they are real. So, so there, there is something to this topic as far as people actually seeing objects, for sure.

Hmm. That's where I'm at. I don't know if I rambled too much there. 

[00:32:52] Travis Bader: Well, if you were to apply, and I know it's difficult 'cause you're gonna be working off of memory from when you're nine years old, but- Yeah, yeah ... and, and you tend to... The [00:33:00] mind tends to conflate things and, and change things. Yeah. But, but if you're to apply the same sort of rigorous approach back to what you saw when you were nine, what do you think that was?

[00:33:13] Rocky Swanson: Well, I it took me a long time to, to dig into this. At that time, our home on the water faced, um, southwest. And over the horizon on the Pacific Ocean there's an island out there where the air force used to do bombing runs, and at that very same time they were testing something... And someone is gonna tear me apart for this because I'm gonna get the details slightly wrong here, but they were testing something, uh, what's called a bromine bomber.

[00:33:39] Travis Bader: Hmm. A 

[00:33:39] Rocky Swanson: bromine... And it, and it was capable of leaving gaseous clouds in the atmosphere that could, could be very deceptive looking. And I- It just turns out that at that very time that I saw that object that that may have been going on. So there's one possibility. Um, as far as it being, you know, something from out of this world, I don't know.

But I can [00:34:00] tell you when you witness something that's so strange like that, it gives you all kinds of feelings, right? Mm. All the feels come alive in your- And I didn't know about UFOs, and I was... The hairs were standing up on my head and- Mm-hmm ... and I, I remember that sort of chill, right? Mm. And so I don't blame anybody for, for, um, initially, you know, maybe jumping to a conclusion.

But at some point we have to do, you know, what we say in the Army, which is suck back and reload, right? Yep. And, and then try to come... And I, I don't have an answer, uh, as of what it was definitively yet. Um, and it's 40 years ago, right? I don't know. And, uh, so, so it's just one of those things that, um, it's fine to not know.

Mm-hmm. I'm not going to attach... I'm not gonna blame the aliens for everything. So, um, it's an, it's an unknown to me at, at this time. 

[00:34:47] Travis Bader: I think that humans, uh, just innately love to be in awe. They love to be- Yeah ... amazed. And there's, the juxtaposition of that is they also love to try and figure it out, right?

And it's like going to see a- Right ... a magic [00:35:00] show. And some people will sit down and they'll watch a magic show and like, "Holy crow, how'd they do that?" And they leave. And other people are like, will be sitting there intently watching and scrutinizing, going, "I figured it out," right? But, but there's- Right

there's a joy that could be happening on, on both sides of the gamut there. I, I think that UFOs and the, the unexplained stuff kind of falls into that exact same sort of psyche of, "Hey, this is neat. This is new. What is it? Huh. Must be the gods fighting in the, in the, uh, the skies or demons being sent down-" Right

a- as an explanation. Um, but just like magic, there's gonna be people who make a living out of this. Yeah. How much of that do you think is tainting the public perception of, uh, of what actually could be or should be looked at? Way, 

[00:35:51] Rocky Swanson: way too much. Um, real data, real evidence often just speaks for itself. It doesn't [00:36:00] need a podcast.

It doesn't need a blurry photograph. It doesn't need a, an explanation from somebody of a high rank. Evidence that's clear, any one of us should be able to look at it and go, "Holy crap, look at that," right? And, and it would be, uh, I would suspect in most cases... You know, if we see a, uh, an airplane doing something weird, you know, we don't, we don't care if the pilots are believers in anything.

We just go look at that airplane. It crashed. It did this or that. Um, we're not asking for somebody's resume. Um, real, real evidence is often self, um, explanatory in a sense, right? Mm. I don't know if that makes a... Stands out. What we're seeing right now is, um, for whatever reason, a lot of people- Of authority, giving us their opinion without, without providing objective evidence.

They're- they'll often provide something they claim is evidence, and they'll tell us what it is and tell us what it means, but then it's, it's really not [00:37:00] backed up. And, and, you know, those three initial videos, Go Fast, Gimbal, and Tic Tac, I believe the reason that those three videos were, were chosen is because we will argue about them for eternity.

Mm. It ke- it keeps the conversation going for whatever reason. Um, and you could pick any number of reasons. They're not, they don't have to be nefarious. There could be a very good reason that somebody wants that conversation to take place. Um, but I think that if you choose videos like that, that there's no possibility of, of discerning any useful data from them.

Mm. 

Um, th- there's got to be a reason you chose that. And if we look at the reason that was written on paper why those videos were chosen, um, they were allegedly pulled out to help train pilots, um, in some training scenario on observation. Mm. Well, that is not at all old, right? We know that now based on, on FOIA [00:38:00] done by people in the United States like John Greenwald and Stephen Green Street and others that received these documents showing what the given reason was for pulling those videos out of the Navy files.

So, um, it's, it's fascinating. If you want a narrative to fly, um, the best thing you could do is, is have an ambiguous set of data- Mm ... so that you can just argue about it forever, and if I disagree, you can just call me an evil debunker, and you can say it's aliens, and there's nothing I can do about it, right?

Mm-hmm. 

Um, you know, I, I think it's, it's very odd that those three videos were, were chosen, and I think that the military, I think the Pentagon was totally blindsided by that. Um, you know, i- is there some deep, dark cover-up of, of known extraterrestrial material? Maybe. But evidence supporting that cover-up is always kind of just [00:39:00] off of what you would need to be definitive about that as well.

Mm. Right? Like, there's ... It's, it's easy to spin a tale to make it look like the government's covering things up. But, um, uh, I ... When we start pulling on the strings, it doesn't really add up a lot. And, and trust me, there's, there's thousands of memos out there where military people were baffled by seeing something.

Sure. But again, being baffled and, and not knowing does not then mean you know, right? I, "I didn't know what it was, therefore I know it's alien." That's not how that works, right? I 

[00:39:36] Travis Bader: think there's a reason why the Trump administration has called for the release of files and they're being released in, in tranches, in, in, in sets right now.

That's almost a loaded question. It's, it is totally a loaded question. 

[00:39:51] Rocky Swanson: Yeah. Um, well, I mean, I'm gonna stay away from the, Trump's personal politics because a lot of people throw that out there. Hmm. And I [00:40:00] don't have evidence of why he, he decided to release these things. However, in the Republican side, the conservative side, you'll find that, and I was a card-carrying conservative myself for decades, um, that the, there is more openness quite often to, um, this type of thing.

Hmm. Right? And a lot of pressure, I think, being put on the Pentagon for about 20 years actually. Um, if we go back to the 1990s, the late '90s, early 2000s, there was already pressure being applied to the Pentagon and the White House, um, to, to at least make the topic something that we could discuss without being ridiculed.

And I, and you know, that has now happened, right? Like, we, we can now discuss this without being called wackadoodle. 

[00:40:45] Travis Bader: Hmm. 

[00:40:46] Rocky Swanson: Right? Um, there's still a lot of wackadoodle stuff surrounding it, but it's, that's okay. Sure. You know, we, we can have discussions, right? And, um, oh yeah, when I, when I first came out to talk about this stuff I would get red in the face and I'd be all embarrassed, right?

Sure. [00:41:00] Um, that's just how it was, um, even, even 10 years ago. Hmm. But why, why now? Um, I think that the pressure placed on the topic, the, the type of, um, noise that's been made by, by these alleged insiders has, has moved the conversation to the point where the mainstream media and podcasters and people like yourself have, have applied enough pressure from the grassroots and, um, that, um, the public representatives just decided that, "Okay, let's just, let's just get to the bottom of this.

It's getting a little bit ridiculous. If aliens are here, if they're not, they're not, and if we have something, let's show it." And I think for the most part, um, government agencies are being very open and, and transparent about it. But there's allegations that there are still, um, agencies, you know, three-letter agencies within the government that are, are hiding this stuff.

And I can say that I have friends in the intelligence world that, that, [00:42:00] uh, are themselves convinced that there is something more, you know? That there really is something more. And I've asked why they think that. They claim that they've seen some kind of evidence and won't tell me what that is. 

[00:42:12] Travis Bader: Hmm. 

[00:42:12] Rocky Swanson: And, and so I respect their privacy that way, but it really sucks, you know?

And, and so have they been fooled? I don't know. But they're, that, that one thing, um, seems to, um- It seems to be consistent that there is at least the belief that there is at, at minimum something, um, exotic that was, uh, at least witnessed or recovered or, or understood somehow. And, and yet, the, uh, you know, good, hard evidence for that is fleeting.

It has not arrived on our kitchen tables at all, so. There seems to be a lot of, "

[00:42:53] Travis Bader: Trust me, bro," in this- A lot of that ... in this world. Yeah. But- There's a... Sorry. Yeah, [00:43:00] have you seen anything that would, uh, that would compel you to believe that there's more to this story, whether that's, uh, UAPs, beings, extra dimensional, uh, whatever, or that is heavy enough to be placed on one side of the scale as maybe so?

Well, 

[00:43:23] Rocky Swanson: no, not in the sense that I could say extraterrestrial, but there are phenomena that, um, certainly exist that are unexplained at this time. Like, there's these, uh, very... You don't hear about this very often in the UFO community, but there are these sort of images, like panels of light that people witness going through the sky.

I've seen some videos of this stuff that I, I know the videos are legit, and there's been some studies done by the French, um, about 20 years ago. I think they had a report, I think it was called the COMETA report. Mm. And a lot of people attribute that to the French government. It wasn't really the French government.

[00:44:00] That's an exaggeration. It was former government of military officials that decided to look into this topic, and there was some stuff there that was at least potentially new atmospheric phenomena that we didn't understand. That's the most I've ever seen, uh, um, that was compelling in that sense. And, and I think that we're going to discover, um, a lot more atmospheric phenomena that is just new to us but very, very normal, very natural, right?

Mm-hmm. Um, that said, I, when it comes to the ETH or, or even the non-human, what do they call it? The non-human intelligence or something like that now. Mm. Um, I, I... It's hard to keep up with all the nomenclature. That's right. But, um, the, um, uh, look, the... There is no way we can rule out extraterrestrial hypothesis, um, altogether, right?

I'm not trying to rule it out altogether. I'm trying to, um, dig down into each case that comes [00:45:00] along when I do look into this stuff and, um, you know, is it... You know, can we explain it, uh, in, in any number of ways or not? And if we can't, awesome, we can put that one up in the green bin and, um, get back to it and, um, and then, uh, see what we can find out.

But I haven't, no, I haven't seen anything that compels me to say they're definitely here, so. Yet, yet you're still a believer. Well, I'm a believer in that aliens exist, that extraterrestrial intelligence is out there somewhere, that the, uh, likelihood of, uh, highly intelligent, communicative, uh, space-faring civilizations is 100%.

I have no doubt in that. It, it w- the, the reason- And the- ... I'm, I'm so confident is just numbers. Just numbers, right? The, the, the, the number of stars out there are endless. So even if the number is 1% of planets have life, that number is so large that I [00:46:00] don't know what number that is, right? Mm-hmm. Like, it's...

The, the universe is endless, so it's got 

[00:46:05] Travis Bader: to be. So from the balance of probabilities as opposed to beyond a reasonable doubt. So you're taking the, uh- Yeah ... C- Canadian civil court measures of, uh- Yeah ... evidentiary rule to, uh- For sure ... as opposed to criminal court measures of it's gotta be meet this threshold to be absolutely definitive before we can act upon it.

Right. Okay. 

[00:46:24] Rocky Swanson: Yeah, like, when, when people say to me, um... They get very angry with me because they're, they're saying I'm just a debunker or whatever. Well, telling me a story, although I don't think I'm being lied to, is not evidence. It's, it's a belief that someone had an experience, they believe they saw something, and they believe they know what it was or what it- Mm.

That is not something I can take to a laboratory and, and study, right? It's, it's compelling. It's interesting. It's something that I'll keep in the back of my mind. But it... I'm not gonna go on the six o'clock news and say, "John over here saw [00:47:00] an alien spaceship," because he says he did. That, that doesn't fly.

[00:47:02] Travis Bader: Mm. The 

[00:47:03] Rocky Swanson: fact that the military films or records, uh, objects, you know, through thermal at a distance that the observers don't understand is no different. Um, the, the claims of radar operators, I... You know, I'm... My wife was a former Navy radar operator, and, um, um, you know, she taught at the Naval Fleet school for a decade or something.

Um, so we've had many discussions about this kind of thing. And my, my father was a commercial pilot. I, I worked around aviation and this stuff my whole life, so I have good connections to talk to people about the details of these things, and, um, and I've listened to pilots and doctors and, and, and all kinds of people say they've seen things.

Mm. And so, yes, people see things. There are thousands of things to see, but does any of the, the evidence so far presented by anyone ever constitute definitive proof of extraterrestrial intelligence [00:48:00] or materials? Not yet. We're not there. We have to be disciplined. This, this isn't about d- debunking, it is about our personal discipline and the ability to take a breath, observe that evidence, don't just throw it out.

Like, let's be respectful of that, that claim. Put that claim on the table and start pulling it apart and see what we find. And it's not pulling it apart in the sense to say, "Aha, I've got you, you're a liar." Mm. No, no, no. It's, it's... We pull it apart and guess what? We found out it was XYZ or, or we didn't. And, uh, we will keep doing that until the day comes when we have that telltale sign of something extraordinary, 

[00:48:39] Travis Bader: I think.

Wh- what was it, do you think, that really started to drive you from diving in headfirst, like you say before- Yeah ... and just like, "I want to believe" to, um, "Okay, let's get this skeptic's hat on a little bit"? 

[00:48:53] Rocky Swanson: Yeah. Uh, it's a little embarrassing, and I don't want to, um, embarrass anybody else, so I'm gonna, uh, [00:49:00] leave some names out.

Okay. Okay? Um, if, if that's fair. Um, I started to get to know some of these folks that were coming out of the Pentagon and, and making claims, and I, uh, on a personal basis. And when, um, I was in, in those circles, um, and, and asking for, you know, w- what it is that they knew, what was the big evidence, um, it wasn't good, right?

The, the answers I w- was getting were really no different than you would get in, in any sort of folklorish, um, you know, tale. Mm. It, it, uh, they didn't have anything. And when I was approached by members of our own government, um, on this topic, some of those people from the United States were, were also involved, and it was clear to me that there was a sense of belief without evidence that they themselves within, not the Canadian government, but especially the [00:50:00] American officials, were believers.

Mm. They, they had a... They did not themselves have firsthand experience, or at least that's what they were saying at the time, of, you know, actually seeing, um, you know, definitive evidence. And in fact, there, there was some... There's this, the same group of people claim that they had this material that they did isotopic ratio testing on.

I was able to speak with the scientist who runs that laboratory, and his conclusions were very different than what their conclusions were, right? Like, he did not back them up at all. He said that they jumped to conclusions. Mm. People can figure out who that is and look it up. But, um, so, so I did my own research.

I, I phoned... You know, w- little things were happening. Like some of these people were phoning me up and saying, "Hey, we're gonna- we know you were a warrant officer in the Air Force. We're gonna bring you back. We're gonna get your security clearances upgraded, and, um, we're gonna read [00:51:00] you on to the, the, these programs that we're working on with NORAD."

And I'm like, "With NORAD? Fascinating." So I phoned a buddy at NORAD who was in, um, uh, their, one of their intelligence sections. Um, and they have something they used to call the ISRD, Intelligence Surveillance Reconnaissance Division, and then that would break down into, like, counterintelligence and whatnot.

And so I, I knew two guys there, and I, I phoned and, and, and just started having conversations. These are people that I know closely- Mm ... as close as the friend that you and I have. Mm. And, um, they ... One of the questions I asked w- was, "These people that are approaching me from the Pentagon, these former Pentagon officials, are they really working with you?"

And they're, and they, they said, "What?" They looked into this, and they called me back and said, "Absolutely not. We, we don't even know who they are." 

[00:51:55] Travis Bader: Mm. 

[00:51:56] Rocky Swanson: And, um, and they didn't, you know, crap all over the [00:52:00] topic, but they, they ... That, what I was being told, what I was being pulled into had nothing to do with the, f- what I could tell, anything legitimate.

It was very odd. It was like, um, "Rocky, we want you to come on camera. You're gonna be a big hero in all of this. When this is over, everybody's gonna know your name, and you're gonna be a big hero 'cause you're, you're an incredible researcher, and you're ex-military. We're gonna get you to hold up these documents and, and be on camera, and that'll give legitimacy to it."

I'm like, wait a minute. Like, look, look behind me right now. You see a bunch of tools on, on my wall. I'm an average slob. The, the military brain started kicking in, and I'm like, wait a minute. I am the last guy on Earth that a legitimate intelligence organization would contact to give context and, and any sort of, um, credibility to such a serious topic.

You only contact people like me that are sitting in their garage, uh, you know, working on old Jeeps [00:53:00] if, if you wanna create a narrative. Mm. Sell something. You, you get people like me, David Grusch, whoever, um, that have some military background, and you can kind of dress us up, put some lipstick on us, and make us look pretty, and get us to say some things so that it sells a narrative.

And that's what I felt was going on. Why they were doing that, I do not know. And, and, you know, they might have had very good reasons for that. But it gives one the sense that it's a grift- Mm ... that you're be- used for something. That's the sense I got. These people that were involved in this I'm sure will see this interview, and they need to understand that that is my perspective and that's how it felt and looked, right?

I'm not making any accusation. What I am saying is that is exactly how it came across, and every hair on my neck stood up and I just felt like there's something wrong with this picture. Conversely, on the Canadian government side, it [00:54:00] was a totally different picture. It was science-based, fact-based. It was slow, it was methodical, and quite serious.

And yeah, there were a few believers in that pile, uh, in that woodpile as well, but those beliefs were kept off the table and it was strictly to the science. So I'm really proud of Canada actually for that. That's, that is now, that program is now called Sky Canada. I'm not involved with it, but that's the new program.

Yeah. 

[00:54:28] Travis Bader: W- h- how does Canada rank on the world stage here? Because it seems to be a North American phenomena from what I see, some South America sightings and stuff happening. But it, it seems the idea of, at least from the research I've done, people will point to, uh, UAPs, UFOs, extraterrestrials as being predominantly a North American thing.

Is- am I researching that right, or? Well, no, no, that's, that's... 

[00:54:54] Rocky Swanson: So the, the perception of it being North American is, is easy to, to dissect and [00:55:00] understand because the, the North American, mainly United States media, has been pumping this stuff out hard since ever. Mm. Right? Like, it's part of the zeitgeist of what it is to be American.

Um, but it is everywhere. I mean, it, it is a topic that is fascinating, excuse me, around the world. I would say this though about Canada and where we rank. If and when something serious is discovered, I would not be even slightly surprised if the place that you first hear it from is Canada. The people that we have looking at this are serious.

They're not goofballs. They're not, they're not even known to the public, right? These are people that are seriously looking at data and calling in the right subject matter experts and, um, keeping a close eye on it and dissecting everything they can and, and working hard in that, um, sense. And, and I, [00:56:00] I'm proud of Canada for that.

Instead of going out on the news and showing a blurry, undescribable thing, they're just behind the scenes working hard trying to figure out what's out there. Mm. And I have, I do have faith in them that they'll, um, they'll come forward if there's something serious. And as far as the military goes, I was never exposed, um, in the military to anything UFO.

But- While I was in, I was, um, in my last couple of years in the military, I was so fascinated with the topic that I asked, um, the base commander up in Cold Lake where I was stationed at the time if I could approach pilots and intelligence officers to speak about this topic, to ask questions. And his answer to me was very simple.

He said, "Warrant Officer Swanson, you can do that. Just don't embarrass us." That's it. That was the only thing, right? And, um- No promises. No, I did encounter F-18 pilots that, that had [00:57:00] seen objects that were, um, shocking to them, and they, they, uh, um, were unknowns over the Arctic. And in one case, they were doing an exercise near Hawaii where they, they saw something as well.

And so, um, um, there, there wasn't a sense when I was in the Armed Forces, um, of any kind of a cover-up or that you couldn't talk about, would ruin your career. You know, and it didn't ruin my career. In fact, um, members of the chain of command loved calling me up and talking about it. People were, were genuinely interested to, to have the discussion.

What they didn't want was every Tom, Dick, and Harry phoning the base to report every light in the sky. 

Mm. 

Right? That becomes problematic because we've known this for decades, that one of the reasons that the military has shied away from taking reports from the public is that we knew that the Russians knew that if the Russians f- [00:58:00] started flooding our phone lines with false reports, that we wouldn't be able to see what was really out there.

Mm. We'd be, we'd be so overwhelmed with false reporting that we might miss a real threat from the former Soviet Union. And so things like, um, UFO reporting became, um, very compartmentalized, and that led to, uh, a lot of what people felt was a cover-up. Mm. It, it wasn't a cover-up of knowledge. It was a cover-up in the sense of we just can't handle all of this coming in.

We need to deal with real defense issues, and we can't be bothered by this. That, that has to go to somebody else. And so at that time, whenever that was, 40 years ago or so, the Armed Forces farmed out these questions to different, um, agencies, like Transport Canada held this file for a long time. Um, and there's, there's different, uh, agencies and even some civilian, uh, work was [00:59:00] done.

Um, uh, by, uh, certain scientists in Canada that would receive the CL-213 files. That's Checklist 213. It's a, it's a checklist that's used, uh, when reporting UFOs in the military. And, um, a UFO being unidentified flying object, right? And, and so these reports would go to, um, uh, Chris Rutkowski in, um... I think he was with the University of Manitoba or University of Winnipeg, and he would, uh, uh, compile these reports.

And Chris has written... He's not a friend of mine or anything. I've, I've had the pleasure of speaking to him once or twice 100 years ago. Um, but, um, he's written some books on the, on the topic and, and he's, he's the guy that was really taking these reports at that time. 

[00:59:42] Travis Bader: Mm. 

[00:59:43] Rocky Swanson: Different story. Today, because of the, the public attention paid to this, the known drone threats and the known confusion created by the wide array of objects that are in the sky, clearly the federal government and the armed forces have taken a very different [01:00:00] approach on this now.

And, um, that's why I'm, I'm certain that if Canada discovers something, um, legitimate, we'll know about it, and we'll, we will see that in a very different way than what we're seeing presented by the famous ufologists, the Jeremy Corbell and George Knapp and these folks that are out making millions of dollars off this topic.

Mm. 

Uh, it'll be very 

[01:00:20] Travis Bader: different than that. Yeah. When, when you were talking to the different pilots and you're learning about what they found to be out, uh, let's say you said in Hawaii or over in Al- Yeah ... Al- Alaska, was there a common thread between what they're talking about? Well, 

[01:00:39] Rocky Swanson: well, in, in those two stories, the objects were, were large.

Mm. Um, ac- according to one pilot, when they saw the object over the Arctic, that it was big enough that, um, it scared the pants off them, you know? The- whatever they thought they saw. And interestingly enough, in, in November of [01:01:00] 1986, there was a, a now famous case from a Japan Airlines flight. It was Flight 1628, I believe.

The pilot's name was Kenju Terauchi, and he had 29 years of flight experience at that time. And they were flying near Anchorage, Alaska. They were coming over from Europe and then off to Japan. And, um, and they witnessed what they described as, as, uh, an object twice the size of an American aircraft carrier, according to them, and it was glowing.

There were other smaller objects, uh, allegedly flying around it. Um, and this thing looked like a flying walnut shell, for lack of a better explanation. What's interesting to me about that story, which is kind of being somewhat, not debunked, but kind of swept away, is that what our pilots- Our Canadian Air Force pilots described to me without ever having heard of that case, was that they described the same object.

And or, or, you know, to me it seemed like they were describing the same thing. 

[01:01:57] Travis Bader: Mm. Something 

[01:01:57] Rocky Swanson: of that size, something of that amber [01:02:00] color. Um, so I, I don't have an explanation for it. There are scientists, atmospheric physicists, that have described different types of, um, lighting conditions over the Arctic that might explain that.

What isn't explainable is that... Well, no, it is explainable, just not in the sense that debunkers would like. That in fact the object that Kenju Terauchi and his flight crew saw, not only did they see this thing allegedly out the window of their airplane, it was tracked on radar. It was tracked by Elmendorf Air Force Base, Eielson Air Force Base, and, and Anchorage.

And, um, it was serious enough that the, um, West Coast division chief for the FAA, a guy named John Callahan, flew up to Alaska to gather up all that data. 

Mm. 

And, uh, and then gave some briefings to the CIA allegedly on that. I say allegedly because I, I can't back up- Sure ... what another ... as they did, but John f- seemed like a [01:03:00] pretty serious fellow.

Now, who knows, uh, if what he's saying is accurate, but it was interesting. It, th- there was some correlation there between what these pilots had told me privately, and I can tell you they had never heard of John Callahan or Kenju Terauchi or any of those cases. Um, so again, there are things that people see.

Does that equate to intelligence? Does it equate to extraterrestrial intelligence? The evidence that we have currently does not, but that's just because... Well, it's not just because, but it's, it may only be because we don't have enough data clearly. Mm. Uh, or we've, we've encountered atmospheric phenomena that are not widely understood or, or known.

Either one of those can be true and, and both can be true at the same time as well, right? So again, I don't sweep that one off the table. I take it quite seriously. When, when that pilot, when the Canadian Air Force pilot was telling me this story, um, I was the acting sergeant major [01:04:00] in a forward operating location, a Norw- a, a NORAD forward operating location up near Inuvik.

And so I say acting sergeant major 'cause I was never actually the sergeant major. I was, uh, a warrant officer. There was no, there was no master warrant officer there, so I took on that role. This pilot was the commanding officer at that time, so he wasn't some noob. Mm. He was your guy, and he became a general in the Canadian Air Force.

And, and he is the one that told me that. I'm not releasing his name because, you know- Sure The media knows who he is and, um, if he's ever willing to talk then I'll, he'll, he'll talk. But, um, he didn't say he saw aliens. He said he saw this, what they thought was a big object and that they flew under it. And, um, that's, that's something for an F18 pilot to say.

That's really something. 

Mm. And 

I ... That is the only case that I personally hear and go, "Wow, um, what was that?" 

[01:04:55] Travis Bader: You know? What was that? Really? I don't know. Yeah. That, that, out of all the ones that you've studied, that's the [01:05:00] only one that you've really kind of just been scratching your head on? It is. It i- it is because I sat 

[01:05:05] Rocky Swanson: face-to-face over breakfast with this officer.

Um, I, I got to see him on the job commanding his pilots. Um, I knew what a serious thinker he was. I knew that he had never, ever, uh, approached this topic. The reason he decided to talk to me was because I had gone to the chain of command and been given permission to sort of openly ask these questions, and I happened to have a book with me at the breakfast table in the mess hall, uh, Richard Dolan's book, um, like, UFOs and the National Security State.

And I- Mm. It ... Like, it was sitting on the table and he, he grabbed it and spun it around and he, and he said, "Oh, you're into that." And I said, "Well, maybe." Right? Maybe. Why? May- ... And, and, uh, and so we had that discussion. Um, so yeah, I guess I'm kind of, um ... You know, you asked me [01:06:00] earlier in the interview here about, um, you know, was there anything and, and I s- I basically said no.

But it, yeah, I guess it's that. If there was something that I found super compelling, it's that. Not in the sense that I think it was aliens. In the sense that it is one of those unknowns that is so strange that the ETH should be placed on the table in all likelihood. Now, there's probably atmospheric scientists out there e- that are gonna hear this and go, "No.

No, ET should not be placed on the table." That's fine. Then let's hear them speak, right? Mm-hmm. Let's hear ... Clear that off the table, and then we can move on to the next thing. But, um, yeah, I, I do keep an open mind towards that, that possibility because again, it would be the greatest discovery of history, period.

You know, wouldn't it? 

[01:06:45] Travis Bader: I, I'd say so. I mean, the, the experts out there that are doing the podcast circuits, that are talking about- Yeah ... what they've, what they know. The, the underlying thing that comes back to me is, again, the balance of [01:07:00] probabilities. They're saying- Yeah ... we believe it because of just this preponderance of information.

Mm. People saying the same thing, which we know- Yeah ... we can be influenced, right? There can be ... I mean, the- extraterrestrial image that came from, uh, Close Encounters of a Third Kind became the, the way that everything looked Right Whitley Strieber came out with Communion and- Communion. Yeah That's right.

That was... I remember reading that book when it came out, and I don't think I slept- Right ... with the lights off for, uh, for a while after that because every time I closed my eyes, I was sure these gray aliens were over my bed. But, uh, but that's all in my head, right? That's all based on- Yeah ... the information that you hear and, and I think- Yes

I think there's... The, the other things that I hear the experts talking about, they're, like, there's a lot of things. They say it's proven there have been bodies that have come from the crashes. Mm. Again, trust me, bro. Um- Right ... the, the reason why it's, um, it's secret, that we've kept it secret, is 'cause there's an arms race or a technology race between Russia, China, [01:08:00] and the US, and nobody wants to talk about it and- Right

tip their hand as to what the, they might be working on. And there seems to be a growing, uh, chatter of, well, no, no, it's not, it's not extraterrestrial. It's extra-dimensional or sub- j- uh, under the water. D- um- This is why when, 

[01:08:23] Rocky Swanson: when, when, when these kinds of stories come up, and this is, this is not new, um, a- and you're pressed and pressed for evidence, eventually it always goes to the ethereal.

It always moves off to the religious side of things. There's a very distinct religious framework to a lot of this stuff, a higher power, bright lights, angelic beings that can get into your mind. They're here to help you, or they're evil. Um, there, there is, there are so many parallels between this and religion that, that it's easy to slip down that, that very slippery slope.

Um, [01:09:00] you know, earlier you said y- you didn't think that there was some cabal of people controlling everything. Neither do I. But what I think there is is like a collective ignorance in a way. Um, I don't know what else, what other word to put in there. But by collective ignorance, what I mean is it's easy to start connecting dots on alleged sightings that have no connection whatsoever, and that connection of dots then becomes the, the lore, right?

Hmm. Um, I saw one, so... And then another person says, "I saw one." But actually, what do you mean you saw one? You saw one what? Right? You saw something you could not explain. Someone else saw something they could not explain. That does not mean those things are in any way, shape, or form connected. But when people start thinking they are and you connect 10,000 cases, it now looks like a phenomena.

There is a phenomena there all right, the phenomena of belief, for sure. Hmm. Regardless of any ETH or non-human intelligence reality to this, that phenomena of [01:10:00] collective- Delusion almost, is also real and should not be ignored. The other phenomena of grifting, if we can call that a phenomena, is a real thing.

Mm-hmm. Right? People making millions of dollars off of this. If you look at the political situation in, in 2016, specifically in the States, and you look at what certain political folks that were running for office were saying, they were, they were saying everything they could to undermine the government, to undermine every agency they possibly could.

"Don't trust the government, trust me." The modern-day ufology information that we've been receiving from alleged Pentagon officials, former Pentagon officials, is very similar. "Don't trust the FAA. Don't trust the Air Force. I've got the answers." Right? Once again, undermining institutions. Why would anybody wish to [01:11:00] do that?

Do they just believe that they have the real answers, or is there some other reason that they want you to go to them for stuff rather than going to those well-trusted, um, agencies that we've, we've relied upon for our national defense for decades? I believe that there is a reason that they wanna do that, and I believe that reason is contracts.

There are billions and billions of dollars attached to defense contracts, and it's really important to keep that wheel spinning, to keep people scared so that you can keep getting those next defense bucks. I'm not saying that's what all of this is. I am saying that some of this is absolutely that, that there are those people coming out of the Pentagon...

Look, look where they work. Follow that money and see where those people work, and, and it'll be, um, fairly, um, telling. When you look at Jeremy Corbell and George Knapp, who, who I don- I don't know these gentlemen personally. I've spoken to both of them over the years, but I, I don't know them personally. [01:12:00] Um, they are, they are selling a product, right?

They're selling a belief. And, you know, they've got a guy like Bob Lazar out there who has exactly as much credibility in this topic as my laboratory retriever when I was a child. Like, none. 

Mm. 

And I know that there's people that are gonna hear me say this and just hate me for saying it. They're gonna crucify you for that one.

Yes, they are. And the reality is that I can take Bob Lazar's story and rip that to pieces in, in about two seconds. I've been following that guy's story, um, since it came out. Mm. Right? And there isn't a shred of it that, that holds up to 10 seconds of scrutiny. It is a narrative that has been sold to the public, and it's a beautiful one.

I love that story. You know? Um, a nerdy photo developer who's, you know, installing curtain rods in people's houses and, and developing photos in a photo booth, has an interest in electronics and physics, um, claims to have gone to some schools where his, [01:13:00] his records were magically deleted, um, is, is picked up by Robert Fineman while standing outside of Los Alamos National Laboratories and given a job to work on the most secret thing ever.

Wow. Right? It does not hold up. It would be like coming to me in this garage right now and reading me onto some top secret program. Not gonna happen. I wish it would. My, my fantasy-prone mind says- ... you know, "Damn, that would be awesome," right? That's not happening, and that's not the way that stuff works. I have been involved in, in, to a small degree when I was in the military, a couple programs, nothing to do with UFOs, but had to do with weapons testing of, uh, cl- at that time, classified weapons systems.

And, and, um, all I knew was what I absolutely had to know, and I'll tell you what that was. I had to know that they were involving lasers, and I had to know that at a certain time I needed [01:14:00] to put goggles on 'cause these things were being fired from above us someplace. And that's it. That's all I ever knew.

Hm. If you don't need to know something, you're not going to, right? Mm-hmm. And to just pull somebody off the street that has absolutely no published papers or no credentials whatsoever is absolutely bonkers, right? It's, not with something so absolutely sensitive. And there's a, there's a, a million other reasons I could pull that apart, but my point wasn't to pick on poor old Bob Lazar.

Um, I don't dislike the guy. I think he's an old-time storyteller, and I love that stuff. But the reality is, um, that is not how this stuff is gonna come out. You know? That is not how science works. We're not gonna find out from, from, you know, some random dude that, that, um, you know, got chased out of Area 51.

I- if there is secret knowledge out there... You know, you could put it this way. We know we've got secret knowledge about, let's say, Soviet weapons systems or Chinese [01:15:00] weapons systems. I know we, we, we have highly classified information on this stuff. 

Y- 

do you have any friends that are like, uh, for example, in JTF2, Special Forces folks?

Yes. Have you ever met anybody like that? Yeah. Right. Those who talk don't know, and those who know don't talk. Mm-hmm. How often are JTF2 guys out blabbing their mouths off in public about what they do? Mm-hmm. Never. Mm-hmm. If we have something, if the United States have something, it's people like that, people with that sensibility, people with that discipline that will be in charge of it- Mm

that will be looking at it. I'm not meaning Special Forces. I mean people with that, that serious frame of mind. The reason that our friends at, in the Special Forces don't talk is because what they deal with on a daily basis is real. It's not a game. It's not a, it's not a video game. It's not a movie. It's real life and death stuff.

If we have a team of people, scientists [01:16:00] and whatnot, dealing with something so sensitive like hidden extraterrestrial technology, it will be dealt with in exactly the same manner, right? And so yes, you could hide stuff and you could cover things up, but you're not gonna have some Bob Lazar-ian character pulled off the street into JTF 2 to run their range, right?

Mm. Like, I, I don't, I don't see JTF 2 guys knocking at my door saying, "Hey, you seem cool. Come and work with us." That's not happening. 

[01:16:29] Travis Bader: Well, with Bob, I thought the compelling thing there always was that there was no financial motivation, and there's only downside to him. Like- Wrong. Okay. 

[01:16:39] Rocky Swanson: Wrong. There's a absolute financial motivation for this, and there's, there's other motivations too than, other than financial.

But, um, Bob's made all kinds of money off of UFOs, you know? Um, especially recently off of his movies and stuff. But, um, there, there's... And Bob, and, and Bob's friend, um, George Knapp, I mean, [01:17:00] he's made, he's made an absolute career out of selling these stories, right? Now, there's nothing wrong with selling a story.

I mean, awesome. Good, good for them. But, um, you know, just think about this for, for a minute. In Bob Lazar's story, how much evidence was he able to provide to prove anything that he ever claimed, right? So he claimed that he had this education from MIT and, and some other university. That turned out not to be the case.

He, in fact, went to Pierce Junior College, where he placed in the bottom 20% of the class, barely passed, right? And a minor electronics diploma, right? Mm. Okay? Not somebody that Robert Fineman's gonna be bringing into a classified program. Um, you know, when it comes to his understanding of physics and, you know, element 115 and that whole story, um, so people will say, "Well, you're wrong.

Bob had his name in a phone book, um, out at the laboratories." Well, yeah. Those laboratories are just big, giant hangar spaces where you can rent lab time, [01:18:00] and different companies will, will rent, um, you know, lab space and, but e- it's a very secure place, so they'll, they'll have everybody who's out there listed at that time.

And today it'd just be on a, on a webpage, right? Mm. Um, there's nothing about that. Rob was wor- Uh, Rob. Yeah, like I know him. Uh, Bob Lazar- Um, for a company and he was doing, uh, repairs on, um, dosimeters, so det- radiation detectors. Mm. Um, I know the exact devices that, that he was working on, and a lot of these are just little, little things about this size that, that hang around a soldier's dog tags.

And, um, um, I'm forgetting the exact name at the moment here, but they're, they're, they're round. And when you unscrew the cap, there's like one Phillips screw in there, and you unscrew the cap, and there's a couple pieces of foil and some devices that, that take a measurement over time, and he was replacing the, the little foil piece inside, screwing it back together and throwing it in a bin and grabbing the next one.

Mm. 

That... This is something that we would get a private in the [01:19:00] Army to do. 

Mm. 

Right? Not technical work. Um, not saying he's not intelligent. I'm saying that this guy's a storyteller, and that to rely on people like that to prove that there's some giant cabal is, is the w- is the wrong direction. By all means, if people wanna believe him, go ahead.

You will not find out any truth following th- those stories. It's not gonna happen. 

[01:19:24] Travis Bader: There was a YouTube video that I watched. It was... I forget what it was called. It was, like, Behind Skinwalker Ranch or something like this. Yeah. Or Skinwalker Ranch Uncovered. Do you know, do you know what video I'm talking about?

I think so. I think so. Okay. Um, it, it- Is that one of the Steven Greenstreet ones? I, I believe it. I believe that might have been the one. I've watched it a while back, but- I might have sent you that. Yeah ... you may, you may have sent me that one. Um, so I watched that video, and it seemed like there was a follow the money trail there on that one as well too, that the, uh, that the, uh, creator of that video was, was alleging.

And they [01:20:00] made a very compelling case too when they started pointing- Yeah ... pointing these different things together. Is, is that the current framework, in your opinion, of, uh, ufology? Well, 

[01:20:12] Rocky Swanson: there's... 

[01:20:13] Travis Bader: It's, 

[01:20:14] Rocky Swanson: it's, it can look like there's this one group, right? Because there are a number of people that are connected now.

But when you go back to Skinwalker Ranch and the program that the DIA was running out there, that was the AAWSAP program, the Advanced Aerospace Weapon Systems Application program. That was a program created through a, a funding deal with some senators and a, and a scientist named James Lacatski. And, uh, I have no issue with any of those folks.

It's just that James Lacatski had done a number of government programs and knew exactly how to get funding for something to, to write up the, the, uh, request for a proposal type of contract that one would need to get defense bucks to, to do something. 

Mm. 

And [01:21:00] so, so Skinwalker Ranch had been a, a well-known folklorish place since the '90s wh- when one family, uh, sold it and then, um, Robert Bigelow, uh, um- A businessman, a real estate guy from, from the States, uh, d- was very fascinated with the topic and bought the land, and then he was friends with, with, um, George Knapp and people like Art Bell and stuff.

And they, they sold this idea that there was something strange happening out at Skinwalker Ranch. Mm-hmm. Fantastic werewolves and goblins and the dino beaver. The dino, uh, crypto creature that they ever spoke about. OSAP, this supposed serious Pentagon program, um, is what James Lacatski and his team ran, in that they, they were looking for ghosts and goblins.

And their, their evidence was terrible. Mm. It was absolutely terrible. After one year approximately, there was an audit done by the DIA, and the DIA is like, "What is this? What are you spending $21 million [01:22:00] on?" 

Right? Holy 

bro. And they, yeah, and they shut it down, like unbelievable. As Eric Davis worked on that and stuff, and it was just bonkers.

And there isn't a shred of data that came out of that, that it's, that it's worth a bag of beans, right? 

Mm. 

Uh, and so, so that... The problem though is that that program of course was somewhat secretive. And, um, whenever you keep secrets on something so strange, it's gonna look like to the believers that, "Aha, there it is.

They were, they were hiding the werewolves." There's a reason, there's another reason you would wanna hide that. It's embarrassing. Oh, totally. Totally. Right? $21 million on... Yeah. Right. And so, so they, um, uh, were shut down and, and... But these guys all start writing books. George Knapp gets out there and starts promoting this story, and it grabs hold.

And there are people in government that are believers as well, not because they've seen anything or have any inside [01:23:00] knowledge. Um, they just believe it because it's compelling sounding. A great example of that in Canada is a former defense minister we had named Paul Hellyer. Super nice guy, right? And while he was defense minister, he was exposed to exactly zero UFO information, and he said that himself.

And when he, when he was out of government, uh, somebody sent him a copy of the book The Day After Roswell. He read it, found it really interesting, contacted the authors and stuff. And they said, "Yeah, it's all true." And he contacted a friend of his, allegedly who was a general, said, "It's all true, and even more."

There's no evidence for any of that. It's just he believed the story. Mm. And, um, so he went down that rabbit hole, much to the chagrin of his family in the later days of his life. And then he got used, absolutely used by the UFO community, especially by Steven Greer and those folks- Mm ... in my, um, that dragged him in, uh, to this culty belief system, [01:24:00] where, um, they knew that once again they could ride on the coattails of that man's, uh, hard-earned credibility.

Mm. rode that credibility trail until he died. And, um, I don't think that Paul ever meant to misinform anybody. He was speaking from a point of belief. 

Mm. But 

unfortunately, because of his background and his credibility, it got used. And there is a almost a network of credibility farmers out there that try to suck people in and, and use their credibility for as long as they can, and then they just flush them down the toilet and go on to the next target.

Mm. And they ... to make money. They do that to, to raise awareness for some other issue. None of these people, not George Knapp, not Lu- not, uh, um, Jeremy Corbell or any of these other people involved have ever provided a shred of evidence that is definitive in any way, shape, or form, and I believe that [01:25:00] is by design.

Because the longer they keep this going, the more money rolls in. And, and I'm not saying that they're not believers. Uh, they're good businessmen, and they're, they may also be believers. I don't know. I don't care if they believe it, but I know that the, the alleged data they're providing is not helping any of us solve any of these mysteries at all, and I would like to 

[01:25:21] Travis Bader: solve them.

You t- you talk about the idea between ufology following, um, a theocracy and- Yeah ... sort of re- re- religious doctrine. Do you, are you a man of faith? Are you a, um- No. Are you religious in a background? No. 

[01:25:38] Rocky Swanson: No, uh, uh, background, yeah. I mean, my family was so religious that I'm probably my own uncle because we were Mennonites at one point.

So, um, so, but, um, no, I, I, I am not a believer in, in, um, God. Um, I, I don't have any problem with people that are. Mm. Um, I just, I am [01:26:00] not. I, I think that, um, I don't know, and, and I'm good with that. And I think if there is a god out there, he, she, it, or they will be perfectly okay with me, uh, saying that because I haven't seen anything to, to indicate that.

Sure. Um, but yeah, I was raised in a very religious household. 

[01:26:16] Travis Bader: Okay. Yeah. Yeah, I was just wondering how, when you look at the commonality that you're pointing out between- Yeah, yeah ... theology and ufology- ... um, is it, um, uh, what are the parallels that you're seeing? Is it basically- The- ... I wanna believe and, uh, trust me, bro?

I think that, um, 

[01:26:34] Rocky Swanson: you know, a lot of people have said this, that there is a... And I think that's one of the reasons that I got into it, being that I, I guess you could label me an atheist, although I hate the label, um, that there is this desire f- for us all to feel like there's something more. And, and by something more, I mean really something more.

And I think that, um, a lot of the ways that we approach- religion, uh, are [01:27:00] extraordinarily similar to how we've approached, how some people have approached UFOs, and myself included to some degree when I was really getting into it. You know, there's this idea of having inside knowledge, um, that there is a higher power, that there, there is this, uh, something that might be, uh, looking out for you.

And I've noticed that there's a, like, the... My, my father was, uh, um, like almost a snake-kissing, hand-waving Pentecostal, right? And, um, um, s- he used to always preach about the Book of Revelations and the end times, the Rapture. Sure. Disclosure is that. It's the same thing. It's the same story. It's this, this, "It's going to happen any day.

Here are the signs. Just believe." Mm. Right? "Trust me." You know? It's very, very similar. There are people much smarter than me, much more educated on religion that can explain those parallels much deeper. But there is, there is a very grifty framework to this as [01:28:00] well, and I think that when you look at, uh, Admiral Tim Gallaudet, um, the oceanographer from the United States Navy that is claiming, you know, that he, he knows that there's these 9,000 underwater alien vehicles zorching around.

Um, what I'm about to say isn't to, um, discredit him a- as a father and a husband and, and an admiral, but his belief system is such that he is religious and that he also believes that his daughter is being hunted and attacked by a poltergeist, okay? So if you already believe the esoteric, or if I'm using that right- Mm-hmm

if you already in, in these things, um, you're prone then to believe in these things, and it's, and it's an easy sell. Intelligence agencies love people like that. Mm. If you wanna get a message out, if you wanna have a distraction, [01:29:00] um, those are the kinds of people that you will get to speak on your behalf.

Those are the people that are targeted. And I, I, I honestly believe that, um, because they become... It's the self-licking ice cream cone, right? Sure. You just have to get them going a little bit and let them talk, and they'll do all the work for you. Mm-hmm. So there is a, a large group of this. You know, you look at Leslie Kean.

You know, she's one of the most famous authors on ufology right now, and she wrote a book called UFOs and, uh, something like Generals and Pilots Go on the Record on UFOs. It's a 20-year-old book. 

Mm. 

Uh, at that time... And she was one of the authors that wrote the first article about Lue Elizondo in 2017, that New York Times article.

Mm. Um, part of that. And if you look at her own background, she will always sell herself as a serious investigative journalist. And then everyone is like, "Okay, that's what she says." Okay. But when you actually look at her- Yeah ... she was living for years with a [01:30:00] well known UFO . Mm-hmm. Right? A guy that convinced, convincing people that they were being abducted by aliens.

And, and she has these beliefs that she can commune with the dead and, you know. So this group of people already are pre-positioned with this, this set of beliefs. So, you know, when I'm investigating fires and explosions, if I approach, um, my, you know, an arson investigation with the idea that it might have been started with a, by a poltergeist, how serious are the courts gonna take me, you know, when I go at that?

Or to put it more down to earth, if I approach an arson investigation with any preconceived notion other than knowing physics, we've got problems. Mm-hmm. Right? So I don't mind that people believe in ghosts or God or whatever, but, [01:31:00] um, we have to be able to separate that from this very important task of trying to discern what it is people are seeing.

I- if we attribute all of the sightings to aliens or non-human intelligence or demons or ghosts, goblins, and witches, we're probably going to be missing out on the discovery of actual phenomena that are super important and relevant to us in some other scientific capacity, right? Not to say, again, that it can't be ET.

I'm just saying that we should not go in with these preconceived notions. We should, uh, uh, go after this with a rigorous scientific approach, and, um, and, and be extraordinary disciplined, uh, about that. I, I know I'm repeating myself, but it is... I think that's, that's just what we've gotta do. And, um, and we'll, we'll get some real answers if we do that.

[01:31:53] Travis Bader: I, I think you've, uh... I, I think you hit the nail on the head, honestly. And yeah, there was some repetition, but it's important [01:32:00] to be, to be in there. Um, interesting about, uh, what you're saying about the people of faith. Religious backgrounds can be the easiest ones to be the self licking ice cream cone to convert, right?

Right. Uh, I was hunting, elk hunting last season, uh, with a friend. Nice. He's ex-CIA spook, and that was one of the... One of his roles was in, uh, generating assets and, uh, converting people. Right. And- Agent builder ... an agent builder. And, and, and you look at- Yep ... um, uh, pressure points, and that's one of them, right?

And you can, you can look at a person's faith or background. What I thought was interesting, why I asked you, 'cause you brought it up, and as well Bartlett in his- uh, talking with these two people who were clearly, uh, they, they were clearly believers, uh, on his podcast there. He- both of them says, "Well, yeah, no, we, I've got faith," or, "I'm heavy in faith, and here's what I believe."

And it's- Yeah ... I, I'm curious, and I mean this is gonna be outside [01:33:00] the realm of what you study, but I'm, I'm just curious what it is about the human condition that seems compelled or drawn to this narrative under so many different, so many different labels or ideas. What- It's an awesome... It's, it's 

[01:33:16] Rocky Swanson: not just a good question, it's an awesome question.

Awesome in the truest sense of the word awesome, because that's a huge question. I, I had to go through this, uh, with myself, um, at some point, and I, I kinda felt like I was leaving a cult. So when I was totally into this stuff, at some point I had to back out, and then I asked myself, "Self," "... why do I believe what I believe?"

Right. Right? And I started digging into that, and it's, there are so many factors to this. You know, there's all kinds of environmental factors, you know, the way you grow up. My parent, well, at least my father was super religious. Mm-hmm. And, and so surrounded by that. So it, it sort of, when I, when I walked away from the church, in a sense, it leaves a, [01:34:00] a gaping hole in you, something that, you know, you wanna...

You don't even realize you want filled, but there's that, that need for something more, I think. There's the, the secret knowledge idea of UFOs that was so compelling. When my brother and I had our podcast, we, at some point, when we were still really into it, we realized that our great mystery, the thing that we loved hunting for, was about to be over because it was all gonna be exposed as true, and we were, we were depressed by that.

[01:34:27] Travis Bader: Mm. Because 

[01:34:27] Rocky Swanson: w- because we didn't want that m- that hunt to end. Right. And, and so that's, it just hit me like a slimy fish in the face that, um, that, that, that desire to search is a, a massive part of the human condition- Mm ... to keep looking for something more. And, um, I had to look at myself pretty hard in the mirror, which is, which is never good, um, uh, to, to figure out why, why that was.

But there... You know, and then [01:35:00] today in the age of misinformation and disinformation, whichever way you wanna describe that or use those terms, there is so much of that right now. Um, you know, you've got some CIA friends, and so do I, and, you know, when you start learning from these people about how information is used to manipulate- 

[01:35:18] Travis Bader: Mm

it's 

[01:35:20] Rocky Swanson: sad how easy it is to manipulate people. And, and I felt that I was being led down a garden path by some of these folks at, at one point. So I, I had the, the privilege of shame to, to run me out of this for a while so I could get some perspective. But yeah, I think that there's, um, endless- Um, reasons why people get into this.

But specifically right now, in the last 10 years, we have been fed ufology with a fire hose. And there's so much of it coming at us that when you're given that much and you've got these, these people of authority telling you there's [01:36:00] something there, it's, it becomes too difficult to discern what's true and what isn't, so y- you end up making a judgment call.

Mm. And 

I- most of us tend to make the, choose the path of least resistance. And so if it sounds good and feels good and, and you like what you're hearing, you, you tend to believe it. And, um, God damn, I wanna believe that stuff, right? But, um, but I need more. I don't want to believe, I 

[01:36:27] Travis Bader: wanna know. 

[01:36:28] Rocky Swanson: Mm. You know?

[01:36:29] Travis Bader: So you've, you've got the... It's interesting. I find when people walk away from something. Like if- Yeah ... if people go through a breakup, a separation- Right ... or they wanna quit a job or whatever it might be, m- oftentimes they need to demonize the other side. Right. And they need to look and say, "Well, I'm leaving her because, man, she was just a demon.

She was terrible," right? Right. And only- Ex the . Right. And maybe- Yeah ... maybe you guys are just who you both are and you gotta go different ways. Mm-hmm. But oftentimes- Yep ... in order for people to [01:37:00] inside and mentally get around- Yep ... the reason why they're leaving the job, it's not because I'm bad, it's because the job's bad and I'm gonna find something else, or whatever it might be.

Um, it, you talk about the desire to search and, you know- Yeah ... searching for, for answers. Y- you really haven't changed that desire to search. You're just searching- Right ... differently and in a, in sort of a different direction- ... while being very conscious of trying not to demonize the other side. B- but I can, uh, and you can tell me if I'm wrong, but I can sense there's, there's a underlying, uh, sense of, um, feeling duped and trying to, uh- Yeah

um- Yeah. I was duped. Okay. Uh- Yep. I was. And this, and then you talk about the, um, the manip- the manip... Excuse me. I can talk. It's okay. You, you talk about the manipulation aspect- Yeah ... of it, and I think that's a r- a very real [01:38:00] side of things. We have so much information coming in on everything, right? Yeah. I mean, n- not just ufology, but everything coming in, that in order for people to step back and be able to make a decision as to what they actually believe, I mean, is that AI?

Was that something that w- actually happened? Like, what's my framework for reality anymore? I think, I think a lot of people- Just through the mass amounts of information that we're being fed are becoming, um... What was that Yuri Russian fellow who was, uh, like 30 years ago, he was, uh, doing an interview about, um, disenfranchising people, essentially how to manipulate a, a, a entire population, feed them so much.

Oh. Y- who am I talking about? Yuri something rings a bell. Yeah. Yeah. But I think we're kind- I think that's kind of the state that we're in right now. Like how do we know- Right ... what's real and what's not, and how do we move forward and... Science does not ask you to believe 

[01:38:56] Rocky Swanson: something. Science asks us to [01:39:00] ask more questions.

Mm. And ufology asks us to believe. So hold 

[01:39:05] Travis Bader: on. You don't trust the science? No, no. I do, I do do trust the- Just trust the science. No, science is a constant process of asking more questions. That's right. 

[01:39:14] Rocky Swanson: Right. I- And that's, this is where people say o- often, um, that, well, science is, is just another belief. Mm.

It isn't. Set of questions, and you can keep asking those questions from different positions, different angles, different viewpoints, and, and get a aggregate of knowledge on any given topic. And then you can start pulling that apart and see what that evidence tells you. Um, and, and you know, I, I've investigated fires where, you know, you walk into the room and you think it's obvious.

Mm. 

And then burn patterns and, and y- you know, the burn patterns don't look quite right, but they kind of point in one direction and, and then you realize that, well, the temperature reached 650 degrees Celsius in there, so therefore at that temperature, the world of physics as we know it breaks down and burn patterns don't mean squat.[01:40:00] 

Mm. And so you physical, physical evidence and, and this is no different, right? It's, it's going in and asking questions and never, never should these people that are feeding us information be asking us to believe anything. They shouldn't do that. It's disingenuous, and it's misleading, and it's leading.

[01:40:18] Travis Bader: Mm-hmm. 

[01:40:20] Rocky Swanson: And that's not... It is not fair. They're, they're playing with people's emotions, and I think that there's a lot of rotten actors in this topic. And, um, I'll, I will say too that some of these folks that are telling stories that are former Pentagon officials might have a very good reason for telling stories, but we're not privy to whatever that reason is.

So I'm not sitting here saying this person's a bold-faced liar, and that's it. We both know that intelligence people in the right positions will lie to you. That's ... Sure ... that's something they have to do. And so there could be- It's a [01:41:00] part of their job. That's right. There could be very, um, valid reasons, whether they're moral or ethical or not is not the point because when you approach stuff from that perspective of national defense, morals and ethics often have no, uh, place.

Mm. It's just cold, hard fact of what they're trying to accomplish. Mm. situation. This is our mission. This is how we're gonna execute it, plain and simple. Masterful. Right. Yeah, exactly right. Yeah. 

[01:41:27] Travis Bader: So, um, 

[01:41:29] Rocky Swanson: I, um, good catch. So, so I, I see that, um, that could be a, a situation. Um, you know, there, there's, there's no reason that I can completely take off the table that somewhere in, in the US government someplace there isn't, um, hard data proving that we've been visited or there's been some crash.

But these people telling these stories that there's, like, thousands of alien crashes, you know, Bob Lazar saw [01:42:00] nine saucers. Like, this becomes exceptionally difficult to believe with no evidence other than the story that there could be, you know, um, aliens visiting on such a grand scale that somehow, um, the men in black are out there.

And I guess they got their little red flashy things and they- ... they wipe them up. But it doesn't, it doesn't add up. You know? There's, there's, um, a lot of people looking at the sky. There's a lot of scientists out there studying every single day in very serious ways to search for extraterrestrial intelligence, and every little blip they see, they report.

Every little question they have, they, they feed the public and they ask, you know, other people to come and look at it as well. That's, that's how real science will work. But like I say, like, it's, it's impossible to take the coverup off the table entirely, but you know, when you, when you look at what President Obama said recently- Right

people got very ... And, you know, they said ... You know, he said, [01:43:00] "Aliens are real," but he was, he was clearly speaking about the grand size of the universe in the same way that we just were. 

Mm. 

Right? And at least that's the way I took it. Um, when people said, "Well, why did, um, Trump say that what he did was release classified, classified information?"

Well, that's an easy one. First of all, there's two things there that don't sit right immediately in that interview, is that Donald Trump hadn't seen what Obama said. Mm-hmm. He was taking the order. But had he actually heard what Obama said ... Um, see, in that interview, he, he gives the impression that he hadn't.

Mm. But then he says he gave classified information. The only thing classified in that statement by Obama that could possibly be classified isn't the existence of aliens, because how many people have come out there, and David Grusch and everybody else said that aliens are real. Nothing's ever happened.

It's the fact that he mentioned Area 51 and the fact that he said what is or isn't [01:44:00] at Area 51. Mm. When ... classified location at that level, it is illegal to discuss what goes on or doesn't go on, period. Mm. That's the ... that I could see that was relevant, um, with what Donald Trump was saying about that.

That's, that's my- That's my theory on that. Makes sense. Um, that they, they take that serious, that, you know, that kind of thing really seriously, so, uh- 

[01:44:25] Travis Bader: Well, we've covered a lot of ground in this podcast. Yeah. Is there anything that we haven't talked about that we should be talking about? Well, I do think that it would be nice to do 

[01:44:35] Rocky Swanson: maybe this again and, and get into that framework of manipulation that is, that is happening, um, from the more famous talking heads out there, and to try and show that, to, to give people a little tool to use maybe to help discern, um, fact from fiction as much as possible.

Yeah. But what I guess I could say is that if you're being asked to believe [01:45:00] something on faith, don't, right? Like, hold... Save that for church. Mm. But, uh, on this topic, if, if you are a person out there that takes this topic seriously, and you... maybe someone out there has seen something and they believe that they saw something, that's, that's good.

That's fine. But, um, don't be pulled down a rabbit hole here. Don't, don't be, um... Don't allow anybody to, to tell you something without solid, verifiable, testable evidence. Um, we're, we're, we're currently being asked to believe, and that's just not right. That's not how this stuff rolls out in real life. 

Mm.

[01:45:42] Travis Bader: Well- That's my 

[01:45:43] Rocky Swanson: two... 

[01:45:44] Travis Bader: Uh- I like it. I like it, and I think we're gonna have to, uh, talk some more after the next tranche comes out and, uh- Yeah, for sure ... it would, it'd be cool if something comes out when all of a sudden- W- ... we have to do a complete 180 and say, "Okay, hold on." But, um- Well, it's 

[01:45:58] Rocky Swanson: not even a, it's not even a 180.

[01:46:00] It's if, if something comes out, and very well could, it's like, "Goddamn, there it is." Mm. Awesome. You know? Yeah. It's, it's like the... Because we're not... You know, you and I aren't sitting here saying it's impossible. It's that that evidence hasn't reached that, that litmus test yet. It hasn't, um, it hasn't crossed the, the Rubicon, right?

Yeah. You know? So that's all. That's all it is. And, and people can come and make whatever claim they like. And I, I have friends that believe all kinds of crazy stuff, and I'm just waiting to see the evidence. That's all, you know? It's- 

[01:46:32] Travis Bader: Well, Rocky, thank you so much for being on the Silvercore Podcast. I'm looking forward to our next chat.

Right on, man. That 

[01:46:38] Rocky Swanson: was great. 

Thanks.